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Re: How to pronounce "divin"?

Thanks to everyone who's responsed to my question. However, I'm still not sure
how it's pronounced. Is it:
Dee veen
Dee vine
or Dee van?

The word ordinarily spoken (as in the dictionary) would be "dee van", however
several vocal scores have suggested "de veen" which prompted my question in the
first place.

It seems either would be acceptable?

Thanks,
Meri
Toronto




Tony Whelpton wrote:

> jzydek wrote in message ...
> >Because it is an elision when singing to enfant, the n is voiced, but both
> >i's are pronounced as ee. It sounds something like this: Eel ay nay luh
> >deeveenawhfawh
> >
> >June (who is good buddies with Frenchman Philippe Simon and whose husband
> >speaks flawless French, as well).
> >
> >Meri Gec wrote in message ...
> >>In "Il est ne le divin enfant" how does one correctly pronounce the last
> >>syllable of divin?
> >>
> >>Thanks,
> >>Meri
> >>Toronto
> >>
> >
> >
>
> I can confirm jzydek's opinion - it is pronounced "divine" to rhyme with
> "line", "mine", etc, not "divin" to rhyme with "vin"


on October 3, 1998 12:09pm
A proper dictionary would give you the alphabetical spelling for the final
nasal syllable as enh. That is: dee VENH. Good luck.

flm
on October 3, 1998 12:35pm
By itself, "divin" takes the dictionary pronunciation. However, in the
case of the carol, you have a liaison. Here's an old Usenet article
which educated me:

From: velde2(a)jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Francois Velde)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: singing in tongues
Date: 1 Jun 1993 15:24:15 -0400
Organization: The Johns Hopkins University, Bawlmer, MD
Lines: 33
Message-ID:
References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu

romain(a)pyramid.com writes:
>
>In French, there is the carol "Il est ne' le divin enfant". It has
>become fashionable in some quarters to sing "dih veen" instead of the
>nasal termination used in Parisian speech. Maybe it's some dialect,
>but my impression is that Americans who try to sing like French
>peasants generally sound like American peasants. The choir of King's
>College, Cambridge brings it off better, but I can't say I like it.

Actually, "dih veen" is the correct pronunciation, whether or not you
are singing, and even if you are Parisian.

Harrowing details follow.

The sounding of a final consonant when followed by an opening vowel is
called a liaison. It occurs typically when two words form a grammatical
unit, e.g. adjective+substantive as in "divin enfant" (divine child).
Whether and how the liaison is made depends on circumstances. Endings
in -en, -in, -ain, etc., which are usually nasal, ceased to be so
when entering into a liaison, so that there is no difference to the
ear between "divin enfant" and "divine enfant" (exceptions are made
for the words en, rien, bien, aucun, un). If you are familiar with
French, you can convince yourself with other examples: "plein air",
"moyen age" (but "aucun amour", "en avant", "un ami", "rien a faire",
"bien a vous", "commun accord" remain nasal). There is another exception,
an amusing counterpart to divin enfant: "malin esprit" is nasal....


--

Francois Velde

on October 3, 1998 12:59pm
In article ,
"Tony Whelpton" wrote:
>
> jzydek wrote in message ...
> >Because it is an elision when singing to enfant, the n is voiced, but both
> >i's are pronounced as ee. It sounds something like this: Eel ay nay luh
> >deeveenawhfawh
> >
> >June (who is good buddies with Frenchman Philippe Simon and whose husband
> >speaks flawless French, as well).
> >
> >Meri Gec wrote in message ...
> >>In "Il est ne le divin enfant" how does one correctly pronounce the last
> >>syllable of divin?
> >>


> >>Thanks,
> >>Meri
> >>Toronto
> >>
> >
> >
>
> I can confirm jzydek's opinion - it is pronounced "divine" to rhyme with
> "line", "mine", etc, not "divin" to rhyme with "vin"
>
>

But I didn't say divine to rhyme with line, mine. I said Deeveen, and that
is correct. Divine to rhyme with line, mine, etc. is pure English. This is
FRENCH!

-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
on October 4, 1998 7:53am

jzydek(a)gateway.net wrote in message ...
>In article ,
> "Tony Whelpton" wrote:
>>
>> jzydek wrote in message ...
>> >Because it is an elision when singing to enfant, the n is voiced, but
both
>> >i's are pronounced as ee. It sounds something like this: Eel ay nay
luh
>> >deeveenawhfawh
>> >
>> >June (who is good buddies with Frenchman Philippe Simon and whose
husband
>> >speaks flawless French, as well).
>> >
>> >Meri Gec wrote in message ...
>> >>In "Il est ne le divin enfant" how does one correctly pronounce the
last
>> >>syllable of divin?
>> >>
>
>
>> >>Thanks,
>> >>Meri
>> >>Toronto
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>> I can confirm jzydek's opinion - it is pronounced "divine" to rhyme with
>> "line", "mine", etc, not "divin" to rhyme with "vin"
>>
>>
>
>But I didn't say divine to rhyme with line, mine. I said Deeveen, and that
>is correct. Divine to rhyme with line, mine, etc. is pure English. This is
>FRENCH!
>
>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own

Sorry - my mistake - I'm bilingual French/English, and I was thinking of
line and mine as French words! The correct pronunciation in that context is
deeveen

on October 4, 1998 7:55am

LedlieM(a)aol.com wrote in message ...
>A proper dictionary would give you the alphabetical spelling for the final
>nasal syllable as enh. That is: dee VENH. Good luck.
>
>flm


That doesn't take account of the context - the fact that it is followed by a
word beginning with a vowel means that a liaison must be made, and it is
therefore pronounced deeveen. That would not necessarily be the case in
norlmal spoken French. but it would be in poetry, which is what this is...

on October 4, 1998 4:35pm
Meri Gec wrote:
>
> Thanks to everyone who's responsed to my question. However, I'm still not sure
> how it's pronounced. Is it:
> Dee veen
> Dee vine
> or Dee van?
>
> The word ordinarily spoken (as in the dictionary) would be "dee van", however
> several vocal scores have suggested "de veen" which prompted my question in the
> first place.
>
> It seems either would be acceptable?
>
> Thanks,
> Meri
> Toronto
>

No, either would not be acceptable. One pronunciation is correct where
the word is followed by a vowel, and the other where it is not followed
by a vowel, but not both in the same situation.

(1) If the word is not followed by a vowel, then it is pronounced as in
your dictionary "dee-van": the "n" is silent and its purpose is to show
that the last syllable has a nasal sound, as in the French word for wine
("vin"). That is how you would say it if the carol were "Il est né,
l'enfant divin" instead of "Il est né, le divin enfant".

(2) But if "divin" is followed by a vowel (as in "divin enfant"), the
"n" is treated as if it were part of the first syllable of the next
word: the last syllable of "divin" no longer has a nasal sound, and the
"n" is pronounced with the following syllable ("dee-vee nawn-fawn").

Hope this answers the question.

Michael Hartney
Ottawa, Ont. Canada
hartneym(a)magma.ca
on October 4, 1998 11:17pm
The french prononciation to "divin", in that case is, if I more or less
similar to the ""i" pronounced as it was a double "e" : dee-vee-n. the final
"n" is linked to the "en" of enfant. If it was'nt, we should say "vin" as
you find it in french in "fin" (end), "vin" (vine) and so on.

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