James,

 

What I have done is print the scores at octavo size ( I use 7" x 10").  I take the masters to Office Depot where they are printed on 11" x 14" paper, double sided and trimmed to size.

 

Good luck, Robert

Hi, James. This is a more complicated question than you might think! For starters, paper manufacturing and paper standards goes back a LONG time, easily to two centuries before Shakespeare, and Octavo size is a throwback to those days when sizes were described as folio, quarto, octavo, and so on, depending on how many folds were made in the basic large sheet. Most of us have long since given up on trying to produce octavo sized choral scores, since it is just so much easier to go with the flow and use U.S. standard 8.5" x 11" (or 11" x 17") or the non-U.S. standard A4 and A3 sizes.

 

Secondly, the seemingly simple matter of paper weights is also very complicated. http://www.paper-paper.com/weight.html will give you a very useful chart, and you need to know these terms and their meanings because there are basically different systems in use, and both you and the paper provider you use have to understand what you're asking for in order to get you what you want.

 

Our Community Band director has found a print shop that will special-order heavier-weight paper for him, suitable for printing music on and much sturdier than the typical 20-lb. bond that you can get at any office-supply store. He has to order in large quantity (whatever the manufacturer considers a minimum order), and he may have it cut to size; I'm not sure about those details.

 

And even the color of the paper is a variable. I believe that MOLA (the Major Orchestra Librarians Association) prefers paper that is NOT bright white, but is slightly tinted to cut down on glare.

 

I thought I had the websites of one or more paper manufacturers saved, but at the moment I can't find them. I suggest a Goggle search for paper manufacturers, where you will find more different choices and more confusing variables than you can possibly imagine! After that, a call to their sales departments may turn up someone who can walk you through the process and help you select what you need. But if they cannot cut their sheets to size, you'll probably still have to have someone local do it for you, and that will have to be someone who has the necessary equipment to do it right (and NOT your local copy shop or Kinkos!!!).

 

John

 

 

Most of the usual sources of music papers used to keep octavo in their catalogs.  The problem with octavo size today is that it's an odd size to run through computer printers.  With many (most?) composers using Finale or Sibelius, and most printers set up for not more than 8/5" width, standard letter and legal paper have become the norm.

    There has to be a better solution than what I've been doing, which is to copy my octavo size on big 11x17 sheets and cut it back to size.  Gotta be something better that that!  For my own choir pieces, the scores always go on 8.5x11, as a concession to the processes available.

Brooks Grantier

Dear James,

I am one of those who has just gone with the flow, by copying onto 11 x 17, and then having it folded and sometimes stapled into a booklet. While it just barely fits into those standard choral folder pockets, the folding does at least add some solidity to the feel of it.  This is especially helpful when I download a hard to find piece from the web.  Let us know if you find a reasonable alternative.

Dan in San Diego

I typically go with 11 x 17, booklet.  As others have said, octavo is an odd size and I have been unable to locate it from the paper retailers in my area.  When I have needed a traditional octavo, I've printed on tabloid, then cut it down - time consuming and tedious.  Some of the errrr.... more mature people n my church choir appreciate the larger size, too.  I can increase the font size a bit - makes it easier on the eyes.

Let me follow up on several sub-topics addressed by the replies so far:

 

While "octavo" can actually vary some, in the U.S. there are several good reasons for the size hovering around 7"x10" one of which is that there used to commonly be small printing presses designed for sheet sizes of 10"x14" and 14"x20" vs. the American "business" sizes that are almost exclusively available today.  I remember operating a table-top A.B. Dick offset press with a 10"x14" maximum feed size as recently as the 1980s.  It was finally abandonded when the church could no longer get parts, and they bought an 11"x17" offset press.

 

But you will find that the larger printing firms who do include choral music in their stated services (such as Chernay Printing in Coopersburg, Pennsylvania, which prints a lot of choral octavos) are set up for a standard size on more modern presses which differs from that: 6.875"x10.5" if I recall correctly (Daniel Dorff at Theodore Presser could probably confirm this).

 

While we (Lux Nova Press) began publishing our first octavos with a 7"x10" page format, we rather quickly found there gto be good reason for the taller 10.5" height, which is a pre-press issue of engraving vs. printing: most choral/keyboard scores fit much better on a page with the extra half inch, rather than not fitting at all without shrinking the staves to a sub-standard size or leaving large quantities of white space on teh page (which also has the disticnt disadvantage of requiring more paper and more page turns).

 

So why use octavo size at all?  Why not take the easy route and publish on an 8.5"x11" page format?  It has to do with scanning--not the digitlal kind, but how the mind and eye scan the music comfortably in rehearsal and performance, as well as the most comfortable handling of the page.  (There will of course be the "it doesn't seem to matter to my choir" retorts, but this is a common understanding among publishers of music and books.  The printing of books may make it easier to understand:  The page size, font size, and average number of words in a line of text are all related.  The font needs to be large enough (bot not too large) for most people without vision difficulties to read without straining the eyes, and resulting the average number of words in a line (ususally around 10 or 11) such that it does not fatigue the mind, nor mentally tripping the reader.  This last bit also has to do with music engraving, not only line length and staff height, but also shape and spacing of notea and other musical symbols (which is a counter-argument to the many users of early version fo Finale who would say, "Who cares as long as it's the right notes?").

 

For those interested in this topic in more depth, it's worth noting and examining the font sizes and types, line spacings, margins, and page sizes of the many different formats of books available in the U.S. commercial market alone: compare a book published in "U.S. Trade" format (typically 6"x9") and "Pocket Book" format (typically 4.25"x6.875" in which you will commonly find many paperback reprints of popular fiction on cheap paper).  Yes, like "choral octavo" (better than simply saying "octavo," I think) there are variations, depending on the printing company and their presses).

 

As for paper itself, don;t worry about the issue of cutting down from 11"x17" as all sheet-fed paper sizes are cut down from very loarge stock.  The problem for the "small buyer" is that which the standard business sizes include this cutting in the retail price, special cuts at the paper supplier incur additional cost.  We typically buy from Xpedx (a retail outlet division of a much larger paper company) set up for supplying individual cash-and-carry purchases and "quick copy" presses who are not large enough operations to buy minimum bulk quantities directly from the paper manufacturers.

 

For most choral octavos, we use a 60# book weight (equivalent weight to the 24# "bond" you find at office supply stores; 20# bond mentioned by John Howell being essentially equivalent weight to 50# book) of an smooth Springhill opaque digital/offset tinted paper; for our instrumental music and some thick octavo books (Like the octavos of James Eakin's "Stargazing") we use a 60# Williamsburg smooth digital/offset white.  When a cover is required, as in the "Stargazing" octavo books, we use a Springhill vellum bristol cover stock which matchs the same tint used in most of our other octavo publications.  Rather than buying special octavo cuts at this time, we buy 11"x17" of the shelf, and print-on-demand, cut, fold, collate, and saddle-bind (when necessary) in-house.  We're now considering moving all octavo printing to the 6.785"x10.5" format (narrowing our standard octavo page by 0.125") and having the stock pre-cut by the supplier and continuing to print everything on-demand in-house or (with some better-selling octavos, at least) having octavos printed "outhouse" by a experienced printer already set up to do choral octavos like Chernay (using a small, local "quick copy" press simply costs too much per copy by comparison).

 

Of course, supply and market forces make 8.5"x11" page format a path of least resistence for composers and very small publishers (especially those which are simply dba for that composer).  So I would advise when using that format to consider sizing the staves and note spacing to scan as well as if it were printed on an octavo format, which means a slightly larger staff size, for one--similarly to how "large print" editions of books adopt a page format to allow the larger typeface to scan properly.  Although "how well the music scans" may seem a small, assumedly "artistic" point of engraving style, it can actually have some impact on how well and efficiently the music is rehearsed.  The "best known" popular music engraving (or music typesetting) softwares say nothing about this, of course, and also tend to space too "loosely" by default vs. layout guided by an experienced eye.

 

And a final reiteration about "choral octavo" sizd paper: You will not find it "off the shelf" at paper supplliers, you must have it cut to size, whatever your own final decision about the dimensions of "octavo" size happen to be.  But having paper special-cut does not in any way disavow the advantages and purposes of the "choral octavo" size for printing choral music.  You just have to take the extra steps necessary, which may include a larger format laser-printer (such as the older Hewlett-Packard HP 5000, which is sturdier and more reliable than the newer HP 5200 equvalent, and can be bought "refurbished" for a much more reasonable price--best if you get one which is also PostScript ready with plenty of on-board RAM in the printer itself).  Or if cost-per-copy is not an issue for you as a composer (vs. a publisher, where it is more of an issue), there are many reproduction services which can do a competent job with small quanities, which you can either have them cut, fold and collate, or you can buy a small amount of equipment for your home studio and do this yourself.

 

A note to composers: If you are reasonably sucessful, self-publishing can become nearly full-time work for a household member or a hired employee in a way that basically only pays for the costs and trouble of self-publication.  But you are likely to achieve better sales and distribution that way, if you're savvy enough, even if you don't nominally make any more money at self-publication; and you certainly retain control over the music, its in[-print production, and licensing.  But there are good reasons for publishers to still exist aside from self-publishing composers.  That's a topic for another thread (which is already out there under discussion, but in which I have not yet participated).

 

Final side note: NO we are NOT accepting unsolicited manuscripts from composers at this time, nor in the foreseeable future!  We have too much to do already, and a backlog of pre-press in queue from the composers we already publish.  Go start your own publishing firm instead, learn how to run it (which goes far beyond selling printed music), and make more money!

 

Mark Gresham

composer/music journalist

www.markgresham.com

Owner, Lux Nova Press

www.luxnova.com

# # #

 

Hi James,

 

Most of the time 11 x 17 paper is used. I would suggest printing side by side to the top and center. Then you can have the printer fold it and trim the side and bottom to create the size you want.

 

Note: not all publishers use the same size for an Octavo either. There are some variances. I have found that 7 x 10.5 works really well as you have just a little more veritcal spacing if you have open score or a C Instrument part. An alternative would be to get 11 x 17 paper and take it to a printer to cut it. It is a lot harder to work with though, even if you have a printer that does 11 x 17 size a lot of times printing to a custom size page is a problem.

I would add one more thing. You can certainly go with 11 X 17 and not have it trimmed as the others suggest. The main reason why publishers use the odd size is specifically for that purpose, to make unauthorized duplication more difficult. If that is not a concern of yours, I wouldn't go through the hassle of the octavo size.

Oh, please!  The primary reason for octavo size is not discouraging illegal reproduction.  Bunk!  I know of no instance where that has actually prevented someone from illegal replicating (and it leaves nice large margins for 3-ring hole punching as well as annotations by the singer on 8.5"?x11").

 

So why continued use of octavoi size?

 

Negative reason: Simple inertia, and the inexpensiveness for large publishers of printing via serviuces who are already set up for choral, octavos in quantity.  Many "known" publishers who contract out printing use a small handful of companies who have been doing choral music printing in the U.S. for many decades, and have been using the choral octavo format since long before rampant replication through photocopying ever became an issue.

 

Positive reason: The format, like the "U.S. trade" format of many books, is easier to manage in the hands and in close quarters.  This fact is not necessarily helped by most folders, particularly the letter-sized 3-ring binder (unless you're using legal or illegal photocopies of octavo-sized music on letter-sized paper).

 

I urge choral people (especially composer-publisherss) to start to think beyond the superficial issue of what typewriter paper is available at the local Office Dope and begin to think of "what really works?" and what makes better sense from a peforming point of view.  Certainly the part of the printing industry which services "general business" is not oriented en mass toward the needs of a speciialized area like choral octavos, just as mass construction of cookie-cutter homes (even expensive but poorly built ones) isn't oriented towards creating better, more human-friendly habitations for real people.

 

Certainly there are bad example of publishers primarily purveying paper and not so much the music printed thereon.  But it will be largely up to the small publishers, not just the big ones, to begin to adapt better publishing processes, whether innovative new ones or re-affirmed old ones of quality, in ways that don't leave the "best human use" piece of the equation behind rather than submitting lamely to what the mass of "common practice" business-supply interests might impose.  Then go do whatever you feel best for you and your music.

 

Mark Gresham

www.luxnova.com

Lux Nova Press

www.luxnova.com

# # #

 

 

 

Mark Gresham,

 

I was in no way trying to be disrespectful to you in telling you where I received the information. I never said that theft prevention was the original reason for printing to octavo size. Nor did I say it was the only reason. So, let's debunk.

 

If you act respectful to me, I will continue to respect you. Telling someone on a message board that the advice offered in good faith and out of a love for the craft that we all enjoy is "bunk" is not very respectful. You could respectfully disagree. We can agree to disagree and be friendly rather than confrontational. My response was to your implied attitude, not the information you offered. You may be a good person and a good musician, but my impression from your response is that your attitude sucks. That is far worse "bunk" in my opinion than the information I provided. And it does not reflect well on yourself as a composer or the company you represent. In fact, it is very unprofessional regardless of your skills and knowledge. I'm not familiar with your work. I do direct two choirs and I'm not exactly finding your website irresistable at this point.

 

The information I have received is that it makes it less convenient to photo copy music if it is in octavo size, and people do not like singing from copies of music on letter sized paper that were copied from an octavo. I for one agree with that as I am a choral singer too. And that is a reason why some large publishers (at least the ones who I heard with my own ears say they were doing it) continue to retain this document size. It is also pretty obvious when you see an octavo that is copied to letter size paper with the edges on the original page size showing that the person is ripping off the publisher (and therefore the composer as well) unless they had permission to do it.

 

We put locks on doors to keep honest people out. Crooks will find a way in anyway. So you are right, the octavo size will not stop someone who wants to steal from doing it. But it will make it inconvenient for honest people to do it.

 

Regards,

 

Mark

I'd like to thank everyone for their responses, both those that address paper size theory and those offering practical suggestions.  I'm amazed that this is such a thorny issue.  It's a simple problem (Paper in these dimensions is needed.) with a simple solution (Make paper to said dimensions.  Sell paper.).

 

We know the music publishing companies have this paper size.  So how 'bout it, publishers, want to make some extra money?  Take some of that paper, put it aside, and set up a page on your Web sites to order octavo sized paper.  It's a win-win!

About a year after this was last discussed, I would like to raise it again. Thank you to previous contributors, especially to Mark Gresham, for the information about what makes a score easily readable and how to go about producing it. I also endorse the view that the role of a publisher goes beyond just printing.

I write from a European perspective. We abandoned our delightfully named foolscap some years ago in favour of A4 and its companions. The aspect ratio is 1:Root(2). A0 is a square metre and each extra number halves the area while maintaining the same aspect ratio. The shape is so commonplace that scanning it comes naturally. A4 is slightly narrower and longer than US letter.

For home-produced editions, I want to print four pages on the two sides of a sheet and fold in two. With A4, this produces a score 8.3" high, which is good for preview or study, but a bit small to sing from. With A3, the score is 11.7", which is good for large print but tends to flap and to get tatty quickly.

To make an in-between size, I have resorted to trimming A3. It is ultimately the cheapest way, but the effort is quite off-putting. It isn't really the answer if 40 copies are wanted for later the same day. In-between sizes do exist. There are international B4 and Japanese (JIS) B4, which is slighty bigger. B0(JIS) has an area of 1.5 square metres, whereas B0(ISO) is root(2). Folding a B4(JIS) sheet gives an edition 10.1" high, which is very close to the ideal for an "octavo." I appreciate that people are recommending 10.5", but I would be prepared to manage without the extra 0.4".

B4 has another advantage, in that larger printers and photocopiers recognize it and can handle the scaling up, so that it becomes possible to produce previews, octavos and large-print editions all from the same computer file.

The big hurdle is getting hold of B4 paper. I have found two companies that got half-way there.
Ricoh are a Japanese maker of copiers. Their UK partner Ikonstore will supply blocks of paper in several different weights, but only to institutions, not to individuals. I don't know of an exact US equivalent, but if enough people asked their Ricoh dealer, they would probably find a way to help.
For smaller, retail customers, there is Deleter. Japanese Manga artists like using B4. It comes in pads of 40 sheets at prices that look high but not prohibitive, at least for a few copies. I would pay quite a lot to avoid the need to trim the paper by hand. I suspect much of the cost is shipping. I do not know how well it goes through printers or copiers. But it is readily available. Compared to the number of people drawing Manga comics, the market for "choral octavos" looks huge. Think how many colleges or churches want copies of public domain or licensed pieces for every member. If we can demonstrate the demand, then the supply ought to follow.

I would be very interested to know if anyone has had success printing on Deleter paper or obtaining blocks from Ricoh or Ikonstore, or any other supplier for that matter. I remain hopeful that I will soon be able to produce "octavos" with nothing less automated than a photocopier.

Thanks for your attention and responses.

    Nigel.