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English Tudor historical Latin pronunciationDate: August 25, 2009
Hello,
I would be grateful to receive information about the pronunciation guidelines for singing Tudor-era English Latin. I have Copeman's book and McGee's book, but both are in storage, so I hope someone with these resources or expertise in the matter will be willing to help me. In particular, I am looking for an IPA (or clear phonetics) for pronouncing the text for Ave verum Corpus (Byrd).
Here is the text (below). What would be most helpful would be to see the variations from 20th c. church Roman Latin, please.
Thank you very, very much!
Kirin Nielsen
nielsen_k(a)sbcglobal.net
Ave verum Corpus natum de Maria Virgine closed or open O? E? Hard or soft G?
vere passum immolatum in cruce pro homine kruse? aspirated or silent H?
cuius latum perforatum fluxit aqua et sanguine: cuzhus? other variations?
esto nobis praegustatum mortis in examine. pre- prE- prai- (rhymes with eye)?
O Jesu dulcis! O Jesu pie! O Jesu fili Mariae. zhessu? zhezu? Mariae --sound of last phoneme?
Miserere mei. Amen. voiced or unvoiced S? Replies (7): Threaded | Chronological
Chip Prince on August 26, 2009 2:10pm
I know some don't think this question is very relevant, but as an amateur linguist I'm very interested in it as well. I'd love to know the answer, if anyone knows it.
By the way, I love that Byrd. It's one of the most beautiful settings anywhere of that prayer.
Chip Prince
New York City
Kirin Nielsen on August 26, 2009 6:30pm
Hi--
Thanks for your note. I hope someone will respond with information. I like trying and hearing variants of historical/regional Latin pronunciations, and would like to give Tudor English Latin a try here. Yes, it is a gorgeous piece!
Kirin
Chicago
on August 29, 2009 12:17am
Kirin Nielsen
This version is gleaned from McGee/Rigg, for 16 th-century AND 17 th C (Byrd et al). Note that final e may have raised to "I" by this time. Byrd crosses the century mark, and it's all very approximate anyway. My "I" = open i as in "bit". Aside: I spent a week working/singing with the Tallis Scholars. They shamelessly speak Latin with English vowels and diphthongs, but always sing with single (pure) Italianate vowels - it was all Spanish music.
TEXT:
Ave verum Corpus natum de Maria Virgine closed or open O? E? Hard (German only) or soft G?
æ-ve ve - rᴜm næ - tᴜm de ma-rəi-a* vIr-dʒI-ne
vere passum immolatum in cruce pro homine kruse? aspirated or silent H?(not a "real" consonant in this Latin)
ve - re pæ-sᴜm I-mɔ-læ-tᴜm In kru-se pro ?o-mI-ne
cuius latum perforatum fluxit aqua et sanguine: cuzhus? (French only) other variations?
kjʏ - jᴜs læ-tᴜs** pɛr-fɔ-ræ-tᴜm flᴜk-sIt æ-kwa ɛt saɲ-gwI -ne
esto nobis praegustatum mortis in examine. pre- prE- prai- (rhymes with eye)?
ɛ-sto no-bIs pre-gᴜ-stæ-tᴜm In ɛ-ksæ-mI-ne
O Jesu dulcis! O Jesu pie! O Jesu fili Mariae. zhessu? zhezu? Mariae --sound of last phoneme?/e/
o ʤe-zu d ᴜl-sIs o ʤe-zu pi-e o ʤe-zu fI-li ma-rəi-e
Miserere mei. Amen. voiced or unvoiced S?
mI-ze-re-re me-i
*I would argue for a more open/neutral pronunciation for the final "a" because English does that on every word, but this is what McGee presents **tum or tus? I know the "tus" version.
ɛ ᴜ ə α æ ɔ ʒ ʖ ɥ ɲ ß ʤ ʧ ʔ ʏ
on August 29, 2009 12:28am
another note, to clarify:
All "u" were open, as in "foot" . It's not easy to see in my pasted version.
on August 30, 2009 9:55am
In cuius, the i should perhaps be treated as a j /ʤ/?
Also, the u in cuius is given the sound /jʏ/: maybe this should also be used in Jesu and cruce?
Steve
on November 4, 2009 11:35pm
Thank you so much, Paul! Belated thanks. We used this pronunciation (the one you assembled) in our October concert. Now working on Byrd's Mass for 4 voices, I have one more question for anyone with the right resources: what about the "gn" as in Agnus?
Thanks again, and happy singing to all!
Kirin Nielsen
nielsen_k(a)sbcglobal.net
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