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Help on Catalonian pronunciation?Date: October 5, 2009
Hi everyone -- We are doing Mack Wilberg's "What Shall We Give", which is based on a Catalonian carol -- it has several passages which repeat the words, "Tam, pa-tan, tam, pa-tan" and so on.
So here's the question -- should the "tam" be
'o' as in "Tom"
"ah" as in Tahm" (the British version)
"a" as in "tam" like the hat you wear?
Or something else?
Thanks for your help!
Patricia Norton Replies (6): Threaded | Chronological
M. Catalina Prieto V. on October 6, 2009 1:11am
Hello well actually is neither of them... the important thing is the way you say the "t" it cant be the english way of saying it. Is a much more explosive "t" with the tongue really forward near to your teeth. As for the "a" is as in "hat"
Hope it helps
on October 6, 2009 4:14am
Hola Patricia,
I live in Spain....pronunciation is: tahm pah tahn. Never "o as in Tom", never "a as in hat". it is not British pronunciation either, although that is closer. Pronunciation for vowels in Catalán is based on the latin root and closely related to the Italian and Spanish pronunciation. Pure vowels. Catalán pronunciation sounds more "covered" than Castillian and shares a French influence as well. Accent will be on the "tahn" of pa-tan. If you pronounce this like the Italian vowels, you will be very close to the real thing. No offense to the Catalanes, it's just that Americans are more familiar with the Italian pronunciation! Hope this helps! N. Roncesvalles (Rodemann)
on October 6, 2009 5:24am
Hi Patricia -
Actually we've always used "tum-puh-tum-tum" - works for us!
Best wishes,
Mike
on October 6, 2009 6:37am
Patricia,
I agree with Nancy, but BTW want to caution you that your examples aren't really well defined unless we know where you live. "Tom" and "tam" are said quite differently in Boston than in Upstate NY (where I grew up). You actually probably want something close to the Boston "Tom" - but not so rounded!
on October 6, 2009 7:44am
The stressed 'a' vowel in Català (Just like the final 'a') falls midway between Standard English 'Cat and 'Father'. Unstressed vowels tend towards the schwa - like the final vowel in Standard English 'Sugar'. So Mike Ellingsen's pronunciation is probably closer to the mark. This how I hear it, as one who lives in French Catalunya. Sorry to disagree, Nancy. Italian vowels are indeed pure and pronounced very clearly. Not so pure, however, in Català. And btw when I cross the frontier I am wary of the necessity to differentiate between Català and Castellano (Never Spanish!) One learns to walks on eggs. As Català is very much a living language, unlike Latin, it is worth the effort to be as authentic as possible. In one form or another, it is spoken from the Languedoc, in France, to south of Alicante in Spain.
on December 9, 2009 10:58am
Dear David, just a few "details":
1) You refer to "French Catalunya" as something obvious, is to say the least, hystorically complicated (e.g. http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosellón_(Francia) ) and its modern use could probably fall within those clearly nationallistic intentions of bringing to todays life political affairs largely settled in the rather far past. So, one should be rather more cautious with these things.
2) When you cross the border you must obviously be cautious, since Spanish (which is not necessarily equivalent to Castillian e.g. http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idioma_español) is a different language from Catalonian. In fact in Spain there are four so called co-official languages, but not in the hole of the Spanish state but rather only official in their respective so called "communities" (wich is a political substructure of the state which would resemble something analogous, but different, to US states or german Lender,etc.)
3) If you tell a "valenciano" (i.e. a person from Valencia) or a "mallorquín" (person from the Balear Isles) that he espeaks Catalonian, he will probably be rather anoyed (unless he has some nationalistic inclinations towards what has been called, only recently, the "Big Catalonia"). In fact, there is quite a big fuzz about these matters (e.g. http://www.gipuzkoaeuskara.net/albisteak/1157360930 ). So, again, caution.
4) Just as American English is different fron British, Canadian or Australian, and even that spoken in Boston is rather diffrent from that in Texas, Catalonian from Barcelona is spoken differently from that spoken in Lerida (cities in Catalonia) ; needless to say that it is totally different from "Mallorquín" spoken in Balear Isles. Thus, again, there is no such thing as "Catalonian pronunciation". Even worse, the difficult part of the song to pronounce is not what Patricia is asking about, but rather, the rest of it (which by the way is beautiful). I believe, the best way is to listen to it.
You can find the complete text of "El noi de la Mare" here: http://www.navidadlatina.com/musica/villancicos/catalunya/elnoidelamare.asp and a marvelous harmonization by Ernest Cervera (which is traditionally sung in all of Spain; I have conducted it in Madrid many times), an example of which, sung by a catalonian choir and conducted by a catalonian conductor (conductress ?¿?¿? :-) , in fact I attended a course with her) you can find here : http://www.emusic.com/album/Cor-Madrigal-25-Nadales-Catalan-Christmas-Carols-MP3-Download/11057791.html . You can find also a pdf copy of the song's score by Cervera here: http://coralhilarioneslava.iespana.es/navidad.htm .
Hope this helps.
Best wishes.
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