Hi Ethan -

Of course, I'm prejudiced, but after hearing the All-State Concerts at Orchestra Hall last Saturday and appreciating the Lutheran College tradition, I think Minnesota would have to top the list.  You are welcome to join us at any time!

Best wishes,

Mike

Ethan -

 

Isn't the question "What state has the best choral program?"  similar to saying "Who is the best composer?"  Is there really an answer?  Texas does have a strong choral history, but so does Minnesota, Iowa, Michigan, California, and many other states.

 

Austen

Hi, Ethan.  I have to say that no, I certainly do NOT view your question as even being reasonable, for fairly simple reasons.

 

First, there is no real way any one person can KNOW what is happening in any given state, without doing a really HUGE amount of traveling and guest conducting.  The ensembles invited to state conferences are usually going to be the cream of the crop, not the average ones.  And I suspect that just counting the number of students selected for All State or Honors Choirs would be an invalid criterion, especially if a state makes an effort to "spread the wealth" of opportunities.

 

And at the college level I can't see any way to come up with a state-wide ranking, either.  It depends on the individual school, the individual choir director or directors, and the students themselves, who may come from a great many different states and from other countries.  Certainly there are outstanding individual programs at individual colleges and universities, but across an entire state?  That hardly seems like a valid question!

 

Sorry, but those are my reactions.  You might want to start by coming up with objective criteria by which you can even judge choir programs, which is not going to be easy.  So a consensus?  I doubt it!

 

All the best,

 

John

 

 

I would like to chime in my 2 cents' worth as one who grew up in Rochester, New York and then travelled 700 miles away (in pursuit of my spouse, not for music) to Illinois where I now teach 7-12 vocal music and direct children's thru adult choirs at my church.  I would propose that using the All State conference (ILmea, NYSSMA, etc..) as a means to judge is not a good one.  The means that a state chooses to rank their High School students is very different state to state.  For instance in New York (back in the early 90's, don't know if it's different now) the audition to make it into All State choir was based on a vocal solo, whereas in Illinois, it's based upon the choir music to judge vocal tone quality, etc.  When I listen to a tape of my All State Choir from New York and compare it to the All State or Honors Choir here in Illinois, it's very evident that a group of soloists (ala NY) does not a well-blended choir make.

I would also echo other sentiments here about seeing 'the best and brightest' highlighted at conferences... as a teacher with 10 years experience, I feel like I would benefit more from seeing an "in-formance" of how a "normal choir" rehearses rather than see another awesome example of the scenario where the school district has a large budget and great feeder programs.  This goes off the path of 'best choral programs' but like another submitter said, the best choral programs are often not the ones who have the flashy product...rather it is a quiet case of the master teacher/choral musician moving his or her students through the wonderful music they make together in rehearsal as well as performance!

Thanks for getting this topic out there, I look forward to more replies on this!

Mike

Hello Eathan and All,

I believe John and Austen hit the nail on the head - impossible to judge!  I would add to the mix the excellent choral programs in the great number of churches across our nation.  There are outstanding programs in every state which are managed by some of the finest choral musicians in the world.  Some are part-ime church musicians who also teach excellent programs in high schools and/or universities.  Others have chosen full-time careers in church music with programs that range from the cradle to the grave!  These are fine musicians who take music to the grass roots level and produce choral excellence with both volunteer and paid singers.  My point is that, if you are looking to find a place of service in choral music which will offer you fulfillment musically, socially, and spiritually, do not overlook the wonderful opportunities still available in church music.  Bach seemed to enjoy it!

 Hi Ethan.  While I am from Minnesota and am proud of our strong choral tradition, I have to agree with Austen Wilson.  These states all have strong choral traditions, praise be the Almighty!  Meanwhile, I do love those Minnesota choirs, but am looking forward to the next ACDA national to hear choir from other regions.  

To Ethan --

As usual, I value John Howell's reply.  Having said that, I must add:  If you want a GREAT place to begin your survey, a trip to Minnesota would be an excellent plan!  You can start with Concordia College and René Clausen in Morehead. His choral school in the summer has been a peak experience for me. 

 

Ruth McKendree Treen

Cape Cod, MA

 

Guess I better weigh in here.  I believe choral music - and probably band and orchestra music as well is not as popular (arguably) anywhere as it is in Texas.  I attended TMEA last week and felt the "electricity" amongst the 25,000 people.  I've attended this many times, and hear from others around the nation that it is the largest convention of its kind.  Approximately 300 were in the all-state mixed chorus.  There is a unique tone color down here I call "southern."  Hard to describe, but I know it when I hear it.

 

Every year in December I fly up and attend college Christmas choir concerts at Concordia-Moorhead, St. Olaf, and Gustavus Adolphus colleges.  There a unique sound there as well that I particularly enjoy... maybe a bit "darker" in sound than Texas.

 

Ruth's comment prompts me to say that anybody looking for a "boost" in their conducting careers needs to attend Renè Clausen's choral school at Concordia, Moorhead.  The two times I attended have helped me tremendously.  Worthwhile for conductors at any level: elementary, community choirs, high school, college, church....

 

Rob

Hey all,

Thanks so much for the awesome discussion. I would love to have the opportunity to see many state choral programs, and this is why I look forward to ACDA conventions. I've always heard great things about the programs in Texas, but am aware that there are some really stellar programs all across the country, and that the term "best", is VERY subjective. 

 

 

 

Great to hear all of your takes on this topic! 

I'm a native Texan born and raised in the Dallas area.  I've done work in TX, NM, TN, SC, & GA.  I've found that Texas has a pretty strong choral tradition, comparitively, but select groups in other states have pleasantly surpised me.  I believe that Texas also claims Rene Clausen along with Minnesota because of his work at West TX A&M University in Canyon.  It's also important to remember that TX is a very large state and the spectrum is wide with regards to quality choral music dependent on region.  It's hard to compare choral traditions across states & regions because they are so different in focus.  It is affected (in my opinion) by dialect, economy, terrain, population density, and many other things, but none BETTER than another...just different. 

I'm in full agreement with the subjective nature of "best," and would also propose anyone asking this question consider this: Which school or director offers the kind of choirs I like? And this line of inquiry might then lead to the following... 

 

In conclusion -- and agreeing with many posters above -- you'll find all sorts of programs in all sorts of places. And while some states might be known for a general approach to choral performance, these are but stereotypes ... and anyone looking would be well-served to investigate what they value in a choir before they search to find the program whose teacher/director/s value the same thing.

 

All my best,

 

Tom

 

 

Ethan, I don't know what your objective is in asking the question, but I, too, have asked it. In fact, I have probably listened to literally thousands of choral recordings and concerts. I have a pretty good ear, having sung with both the Shaw and Wagner Chorales and attended Salamunovich's workshops. I do not care for the pre-conceived Northern European (Lutheran) sound--it's inflexible and stuck like DVD on pause. The heraldic habit of many other choirs such as USC and Miami of Fla. is equally  dull to my taste.

I think for overall maturity and musicality, Utah, with Brigham Young U. and now Utah State with Craig Jessup has as good as it gets. Warm balanced phonation, in tune, careful musicality, honest to the composer's intent, not showy etc., etc. I do not know any better--check 'em out!

 

Ed Palmer

Ethan, it inspires me to know that you and others critique, evaluate and then create your own choral sounds.

When I was starting out as a choral conductor I read, went to concerts, talked with conductors, attended workshops,etc. I wanted to know what the best sound could be, at least for me and my groups.

 So, I too, worked or attended concerts with Paul Saamunovich, Roger Wagner, John Eliot Gardiner, Eric Erickson, Dale Warland, and many others.

Of course, it was easy to find reading material about about F. Melius Christiansen and the Christiansen choral philosophy at St. Olaf, Fr. William Finn and many others. In my state of Washington, I found several different philosophies with choral tone, style, interpretation and presentation. One of the conductors had a fantastic men's section. He seemed to dwell on a large and vibrant sound from the men. Another while lacking in finesse had a spirit that would knock your socks off. Then there was a choral program that did not have any vibrato, much like the St. Olaf groups. And another that seemed to permit the vibrato to have free rein.

Although I continue to critique groups, I have settled in on what I like and what I believe is a good compromise of all these sounds, techniques, styles and interpretations.

A good portian of this is subjective, it's what you like and what you will want to produce.

Now, this may not be the reasons for your questions ,but I hope it is of some help. I do know that most every state in the United States has a number of claims to fame with choral groups. Even some of the less populated states have great choirs. Some of these choral groups are in colleges, universities or schools while others are community groups. Seattle has over 30 community choral groups who perform from one to several concerts a year. I have observed many of these groups and continue to be amazed at the variety of styles and the quality of performance of these groups.

Good luck on you endeavor. I admire your inquisitiveness.

Cheers,

Frank

I think it's the wrong question. Why not just ask what we can do to seek out and tell more of the truth through our art and seek out people with good ideas who can teach us how to do it better?  Come to think of it, isn't that why we have ACDA and Choralnet?