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Broad, simplistic posts from studentsDate: February 15, 2010
Perhaps I'm just cranky from all the snow we've received here in DC, but another post has just come in from a student in Missouri (there have been several in the past week or so) asking for suggestions for Renaissance and Baroque pieces suitable for middle school singers. A teacher somewhere in Missouri seems to have given students an assignment to try out ChoralNet by asking a question. The questions have been uniformly short, non-specific and (again, maybe it's the snow talking) annoying. As a ChoralNet board member, I'm thrilled that people are educating the next generation of conductors on the use of this site. I'm glad people are seeking out information and connecting with colleagues around the world. And no matter how dumb the question, someone will always chime in with advice and suggestions, because we want to be helpful and supportive. But if you're a student and you're asking a question like "Can you tell me some Renaissance choral pieces?," then you should seriously examine your methodology. And if you're a teacher who tells his/her students to "Just send a simple request to ChoralNet and watch the replies roll in!," you might consider asking them to be a little more specific with their questions.
A student can easily Google "Baroque choral music" and get a long list of pieces. How about they ask for something more specific, like Renaissance sacred SATB choral works less then five minutes in duration with Latin texts? I fail to see the value in asking a question that has the potential to annoy so many choral conductors when that question could be answered in literally 30 seconds with most any search engine. The students could also search the ChoralNet archives by entering some key words in the Search box on the home page. In other words, please think before you post! I know we all have "delete" buttons, but if you're trying to teach or learn the best way to get information from colleagues, you'll do better by being more specific with your inquiries. Replies (16): Threaded | Chronological
Leonard Ratzlaff on February 15, 2010 8:57pm
I couldn't agree more, Frank, thanks for expressing so well what I'm sure many of us have been thinking about this rash of posts.
on February 16, 2010 7:47am
The race was on a cranky Frank won. I'm cranky as well but Syracuse doesn't have nearly enough snow and it is just to the level of an annoyance.
S
on February 16, 2010 9:29am
I also agree. Not so much from the annoying aspect, but from the lack of scholarship. Choralnet should be the last resort - not the first. Although my semi-rant is also directed at non-students. I also see posts from conductors where it seems clear they are using Choralnet to avoid their own efforts.
on February 16, 2010 11:39am
Unfortunately I don't think that all of these (inane) requests are from students. It seems to me that a large percentage of the requests for even very specific repertoire suggestions are posted in lieu of personal research by lazy, exhausted, or uninspired music directors. As a music listener, it is now possible to have some service or someone other than yourself decide what you like, and supply just the tunes that match that profile -- effectively eliminating the possibility that the listener might discover something new. One of the big weaknesses of many music history or survey courses these days is that the instructor chooses the pieces to be studied, the library downloads those specific pieces, and the student never "has to listen" to anything other than the assigned repertoire.
Most of the music that I have grown to love to listen to, and to perform, was "discovered" accidentally when I was looking for something else. The same thing is true of researching by examining scores, rather than only by listening. The joy of plowing through bins of music for hours at a time often led to discoveries of pieces that spoke to me and my programming needs, but might never have been suggested or even in the knowledge base of even my most enlightened colleagues. The joy of discovery, and of developing one's own musical profile, is largely lost to newcomers to the music profession because of the easy access of someone else's list of favorites.
So I would encourage students (and those active professionally) to get away from the computer, get away from the I-Pod, get away from the satelite radio, and get thee to a library to browse the music stacks and cd shelves. The piece just before or just after the piece you thought you were looking for may be just the right piece to send you into a new and unexplored area that you can truly call your own.
Charles Q. Sullivan
cqsmusic(a)hotmail.com
on February 16, 2010 9:13pm
Hi, Charles. As someone who teaches one of those "music history survey courses" I have to correct your comments, although I understand that they may be true at other schools.
We are at the mercy of the editors who select the examples that are included in the specific sets of CDs that accompany the textbooks. My students DO have the full sets of CDs, and I encourage them to listen as they are studying, and 6 CDs per semester is an awful lot of music. Now admittedly there are a lot of duplications between, say, the Stolba set I've used for many years and the Norton set that goes with Palisca. That's partly because when you can only hit the high spots, a lot of the same items turn up, and partly because those editors are limited to the recordings that have been made, are available, and can be contracted for. But I select the examples I will hold my students responsible for from those examples. I WISH my Library would "downloadthose specific pieces" and allow me to select them, but fear of copyright violation has made them decide NOT to stream any collections.
My situation is rather different from most, in that I teach a 2-semester music survey course specifically aimed at (a) General Students, in our Core Curriculum, and (b) Music Minors, for which these are the music history component of their minor. So for a great many of these students these CDs (and the required concerts I ask them to attend and review) are their VERY FIRST EXPOSURE to classical music at all! Our music majors take a different history sequence, taught by a music theorist who hated the music history courses HE had in undergrad school!
In regard to student posts to this forum, when I taught Choral Lit for music majors I introduced them to the then-existing Choral Lists, and had them send in posts, but after having been strongly advised (reasonably gently!) by other Listmembers the first semester I did that, I modified the assignments to avoid the kind of queries that are being dissed here. Professors have learning curves, too! And this discussion may cause a few to modify their class's approach as I modified mine. But I thought then and continue to believe that it is VERY IMPORTANT for students to learn what's available on the Interenet far beyond FaceBook and YouTube!
All the best,
John
on February 16, 2010 12:24pm
I really didn't want to open my mouth here other than to call Frank cranky, but...
I think we are all busier than we used to be, and there is far more music available to us than there used to be just on cpdl alone. Those of us who have been at this for years often take shortcuts by asking others of a similiar length of experience for the benefit of that experience. "What's the best work for choir and orch for strings and harp that you know?" I think that's reasonable, and makes us look at the works on the responses we receive that we don't know, and examine them carefully. The chances are good that if a bunch of colleagues of great experience and taste recommend a piece by, say, Zelenka, that I don't know, it's worth my time to have a look, and if everyone says, the Dvorak Requiem is only a B- piece, I might take a pass. Would that we had time to examine every work and find out for ourselves.
[As an aside, on my sabbatic this last fall I listened to 50-60 works that I didn't know or know well, and how wonderful it was! But I haven't had time for that since graduate school]
This is very different from a kid in school saying, I have an assignment to find 5 pieces appropriate for high school from the Renaissance, Baroque and Classical periods, what do you recommend? That seems to me to be asking experts in the field to do your homework for you, and far from the point of the homework assignment, which is not to create lists, but to examine music and make some critical decisions. And learn while doing so.
I don't think the moderators should decline to allow such posts to be sent. I think they should be sent, and we should ignore them! Except for Frank, who can respond, Go do your homework! (:-) And I hope he does.
on February 16, 2010 2:08pm
Well said,
I had to restrain myself from a snarky response about going to the library or opening a textbook.
on February 16, 2010 4:58pm
Frank, thanks for saying what all of us have been thinking for quite some time now. So many of the posts have been like kids' (inane) tweeting (or is it twittering?). As a Research Historian and program annotator, I believe firmly that students need much more instruction and opportunities to learn how to think through a query before posting to ChoralNet. My own alma mater, Transylvania College in Lexington, would be a good place to start. Imagine my horror, when the alumni magazine arrived not too long ago with an honor student proclaiming proudly that she had managed to get through college without ever needing to use the library! Perhaps the Moderator can decline to post these kinds of queries in the future, or alternatively, put them in a category all of their own, where those with way too much time on their hands can amuse themselves by reading and responding to them.
Margaret Shannon
Another cranky snow-bound Washingtonian
on February 16, 2010 2:21pm
We do have a student category on ChoralNet, and the moderators debated long and hard about whether or not to put all these posts there. But as others have pointed out, this type of request doesn't always come from a neophyte student. And since most people receive all posts that are put in any ChoralNet category, it wouldn't do much to mitigate the annoyance factor.
on February 16, 2010 9:18pm
I have seen many good thoughts, but I thought I would give my two cents.
1. There is benefit is doing one's own research. However, with resources like cpdl, IMSLP, and pandora, there is a wealth of choral repertoire for free, especially if one does not live near a good music library. For those of you who don't know, pandora.com is a free website where one can listen to anything. I have set up many channels with diverse music, including music centered around Victoria, Tallis, Byrd, and other Renaissance composers. Frequently I hear pieces that were a treat to hear for the first time. Npr is also a great source. Several weeks ago on Colorado Public Radio during the Sacred Classics show (airs Sunday mornings), they played a piece by a composer called Niels Wilhelm Gade, a fantasic late Romantic Danish composer. Sometimes on pandora, I come across composers who were previously unfamiliar.
2. There is also a tremendous benefit from posting questions on choralnet. Sometimes I just get in a rut and can't think of the right piece to program or the right solution for a challenge. I remember in August I asked a question asking for suggestions for pieces immediately following Prayer of the Children. The answers were very beneficial and helped me find the right piece.
Do your research, but if you do post, make your question as specific as possible.
on February 17, 2010 1:47pm
Austen made two good, contrasting points: 1. There is benefit is doing one's own research. and 2. There is also a tremendous benefit from posting questions on ChoralNet.
In my opinion, the best questions posted to ChoralNet are from people who support both of these ideas. Yes, do post a query, but do the basic research first on your own, and let us know where you already looked so we don't duplicate effort. It's also easier to provide useful answers to those who provide context for their questions.
"I need info about XYZ. I've already checked the ChoralNet archives and I also checked resources 1, 2, and 3. I still can't find the answer. Ideas?"
"I'm planning a concert with theme ABC, and I'm looking for repertoire for [name ensemble type and skill level]. I already checked the ChoralNet archives as well as resources 1, 2, 3, but I'd like some additional ideas. Got any?"
"I'm a student at ABC School/University. In my class on [subject], I've been assigned to find out more about XYZ; my teacher recommended that I post a query here. Here are details about the assignment and how the info will be used: [info]. I've already checked the ChoralNet archives, as well as resources 1,2,3. I'd also like your opinions on this topic [or repertiore, or whatever]."
Sarah Hager Johnston, MLS, BMus
on February 17, 2010 12:43am
"Do your research, but if you do post, make your question as specific as possible." --Austen Wilson
That's right to the point, isn't it? I'm sure I'm not the only one who's mildly appalled when I see questions like "What are some good SATB songs about love?" on Choralnet!
on February 17, 2010 9:21am
I'm with cranky Frank. The only things that bother me me more than literature questions that can be easily answered by ones self with a little effort, are questions about which conductor/choral program/ state is the best.
(For future reference, and to set the record straight, Steve Grives/South Dakota State University/South Dakota is the answer to the "best" question. :-)
Steve Grives
steven.grives(a) sdstate.edu
on February 18, 2010 1:31am
Quite frankly, those "broad, simplistic posts from students" are so obviously casual responses to instructions from careless teachers that I find it easy to pass over them without a second thought.
What exercises me, however, are the posts from people who are ostensibly professionals along the lines of, "I've planned a concert on [Theme] and would appreciate recommendations of repertory that would fit," without the inclusion of titles the poster has already considered or has decided to include. Such posts convey the impression that the sender has done as little homework as the students who provoked this thread; at least the students have the excuse of inexperience.
This is entirely beside the point that perhaps it would be better first to find repertory that you absolutely must do or else you'll die, and then come up with a theme that unites what may at first seem to be disparate works. Aside from anything else, this might help avoid trite themes.
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