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pronunciation of Latin words "patiens" and "invicem"Date: February 16, 2010 by Kel Toza
 I am wondering the correct ecclesiastical pronunciation of two Latin words "patiens" and "invicem."
"patiens" According to the Correct Pronunciation of Latin According to Roman Usage, spelled TI will be "ti" (not "tsi") in case of infinitive of deponent and passive verb when enlarged. It shows an example of pati-patier-patior. I am wondering the case of this word "patiens." As far as my Latin knowledge goes, the word is adjective, and spelled "ti" would be "tsi" since it proceeded by a letter which is not S, T, or X, and followed by a vowel. But since "patiens" seems to have same root as "pati," I am wondering whether I really should pronounce it "PA-tsi-ens," or "PA-ti-ens."
"invicem" I am wondering the place of stress of this word. My first guess was "in-VI-cem," but my Latin dictionary (Cassell's Latin Dictionary) says that the second syllable is a short vowel; therefore I should pronounce "IN-vi-cem." Could someone confirm this? Replies (15): Threaded | Chronological
John Howell on February 16, 2010 11:00am
Kel, My reference is always to the pronunciation guide in the Liber Usualis, since I've never studied Latin and don't want to be confused by so-called "Classical" Latin, which is quite different. The entry there is pretty clear, and has nothing to do with parts of speech:
"TI standing before a vowel and following any letter (except S, X, T) is pronounced tsee : Patiéntia = Pah-tsee-én-tsee-a; Grátia = Grá-tsee-a; Constitútio = Con stee-tú-tsee-o; Laetítia = Lae-tée-tsee-a."
And for a singer (who has not studied Latin), there are no "long" and "short" vowels.
It sounds as if your Cassell's is talking about Classical rather than Liturgical Latin.
All the best,
John
John Wexler on February 18, 2010 2:27am
Yes indeed - Cassell's dictionary is concerned solely with classical Latin, and the markings show "quantity" rather than stress. They are relevant for the composition of classical metrical verse, and not for much else.
That said, "invicem" would sound odd with the middle syllable stressed "inVIcem". It wouldn't sound much better as "INvicem". It doesn't really need any of its syllables stressed.
JW
Edinburgh
on February 16, 2010 1:53pm
"Patiens" is, I believe, a present participle, not an infinitive.
But, the de Angelis book on pronunciation is the only source I have ever found for the particular rule you are citing. It's not in the Liber Usualis--which itself was (I believe?) actually never an official liturgical book, but could be said to have greater authority than de Angelis.
The text stress in "ínvicem" in the Epistle of 15th Sunday after Pentecost in the Liber Usualis corresponds to what you find in Cassell's.
on February 16, 2010 6:32pm
Yes, those additional "TI" rules, like Ti found in Hebrew-origin word should be "ti" not "tsi" as in the word profetia, are not found in Liber Usualis.But we can find them in the book by de Angelis/Hall and the book by Hines. And it seems to be nothing to do with Classical pronunciation of Latin (it never uses tsi).
The simpler rule of TI found in Liber Usualis is easy to remember, but I do feel the whoever added the pronunciation section in English edition of Liber Usualis did not do scholarly work, but rather copied some other incomplete pronunciation explanation. But this is my personal opinion. I am wondering if other language editions of Liber Usualis contain pronunciation chart exactly same to what we can find in English edition.
Well, long and short vowel is not that important in terms of actual length because music governs that part, but it does effect the placement of the stress. Felipe, thank you for your input of "invicem," that will make my life easier...
on February 16, 2010 7:11pm
Just curious -- from what Hebrew word is "profetia" derived?
(Kel Toza wrote, "...those additional "TI" rules, like Ti found in Hebrew-origin word should be "ti" not "tsi" as in the word profetia...")
on February 16, 2010 11:03pm
Oops, sorry, it is not Hebrew but Greek. Another example listed is tiara.
on February 17, 2010 6:55am
I can't imagine where it was listed, but 't'iara' appears to
be originally from an unspecified oriental language; it
subsequently passed through Greek into Latin. It would be a very
good idea to avoid this particular 'authority' that you seem to be
using. What is, it, by the way?
on February 20, 2010 3:59pm
My edition of the Liber Usualis (1963), plus every other authority which I checked stated something like, ""When the syllable ti is followed by a vowel and preceded by any letter except S, T, or X it is pronounced tzee or tsee not tee." The following other authorities were checked and stated nearly identical information: The Correct Pronunciation of Latin According to Roman Usage (G.I.A., 1937); Latin Pronunciation According to Roman Usage (William D. Hall, 1971); Singer's Manual of Latin Diction and Phonetics (Rober S. Hines, 1975); Diction for Singers (Joan Wall, et al, 1990); Diction (John Moriarty, 1975); Pronunciation Guide for Choral Literature (William V. May and Craig Tolin, 1987); and my favorite Latin source, Translations and Annotations of Choral Repertoire, Volume I: Sacred Latin Texts (Ron Jeffers, 1988). If you would like more information on geographical and historical influences on Latin pronunciation, I suggest that you check Singing in Latin or Pronunciation Explor'd by Harold Copeman,1990.
Garrett Epp
on February 21, 2010 7:06am
I think most of us do agree with ""When the syllable ti is followed by a vowel and preceded by any letter except S, T, or X it is pronounced tzee or tsee not tee" rule.
I know that Greek exceptions listed in:
The Correct Pronunciation of Latin According to Roman Usage (G.I.A., 1937);
Latin Pronunciation According to Roman Usage (William D. Hall, 1971); Singer's Manual of Latin Diction and Phonetics (Rober S. Hines, 1975)
are not much of the concern since example words follows the basic rule.
But I know that the these two books say an addtiional exception which is
"spelled TI will be "ti" (not "tsi") in case of infinitive of deponent and passive verb when enlarged."
"patier" will not be "pa-tsi-er," but "pa-ti-er."
Again, the most basic rule are easy enough, and I know that Liber Usualis lists this rule only. I am assuming that whoever did the Liber Usualis's pronunciation chart copied the pronunciaion chart of Gregorian Chant Accoridng to the Solesmes Method (Gregory Sunol) which was published in late 20s or early 30s (since the preface of the book is written 1929). But as you know, the book is originally written in French (of course, people who made modern gregorian chant books are French.) I am wondering the possibility of those French people missed something, and consequently, those publication who use Liber Usualis as an ultimate source kept missing something...
on August 12, 2010 1:20pm
"Ecclesiastical" pronunciation I can't help you with; the Church uses terrible Latin, and the pronunciation is worse even than the grammar. However, the PROPER pronunciation of these words I do know: PAH-tee-ehns, and IHN-wick-ehm. Antepenultimate stress in both cases because the penultimate syllable is short and both words are at least 3 syllables.
Patiens is a 3/3/3 adjective meaning "patient" as in "able to endure", and invicem is an adverb meaning "reciprocally" or "one upon another". The root of patiens is patient. You can't derive it from the nominative, because it's 3rd Declension. You have to look at the genitive: patientis.
Sg. Nom. Gen. Dat. Acc. Abl. Voc; Pl. Nom. Gen. Dat. Acc. Abl. Voc.
Patiens, patientis, patienti, patientem, patiente, patiens; Patientes, patientum, patientibus, patientes, patientibus, patientes.
The patient men have not waged war upon each other. Viri patientes bellum invicem non gesserunt.
Patiens does not replace cum patientia "with patience" because that acts as an adverb ("patiently"), not an adjective.
on August 12, 2010 9:11pm
Bill: Your analysis and scholarship are wonderful and much appreciated, but you might want to lighten up in your criticism of church Latin. It is one modern dialect of classical Latin, just as valid as other dialects including modern Italian, Spanish, and other descendents, but even older than those derivative languages. And as I understand it (and please correct me if I'm wrong), the pronunciation of "classical" Latin was in fact lost, and re-invented at some point during the Middle Ages, which makes it an even later derivative of the original language.
As a liturgical language it survived surprisingly well, although its development was stopped to a great extent, much like Hebrew as a liturgical language, which lacked the vocabulary needed in the modern world when it became the language of modern Israel. But that doesn't make either liturgical Latin or liturgical Hebrew "terrible"!
All the best,
John
on August 13, 2010 1:07am
I'd go for [pats-] in patiens and patientia on the grounds that their descendants in Italian are spelled paz- and pronounced [pats-]. Not sure what I'd do if I ever had to sing patior ('I suffer') etc. Patire in Italian retains [-t-] throughout (e.g. patiamo, patii).
--
Steve
on August 13, 2010 6:48am
Amen John, concerning your positive comments on liturgical latin. I was just getting ready to reply to Bill's charge when I read your comment. I couldn't have said it better so, I'll just lend my support to your statement.
on August 17, 2010 6:42am
Certainly not apropos of the discussion, but when I read Bill's surname name first, I saw it momentarily as 'Pilate'. I apologise for that, Bill. Although when it comes to Latin you know how to throw the punches (or should that be Pontius?)
<festino me demergere - hastily ducks>
David
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