Not enough "Christe"

Date: March 30, 2010

Ok, here is where I stick my neck out and duck for cover.

In the Kyrie movement of Haydn's Missa in tempore belli there are only one and half statements of the text, "Christe Eleison."

For liturgical and structural reasons I suspect that the text printed for the alto solo at letter C might be a copying error and that the text for that solo should be "Christe Eleison" instead of "Kyrie Eleison" because:

1. Haydn certainly knew that the format for the introit is 3 Kyries, 3 Christes and 3 Kyries (not 1.5 Christes)

2. The choral entry that follows the soprano solo earlier in the movement reinforces the soprano text (Kyrie Eleison) by restating it. If the alto solo were Christe Eleison then the choral entry that follows would continue that pattern.

3. The change in timbre from soprano to alto voice at C would support the change in text from Kyrie to Christe.

Of course I have no historical evidence to support this theory.

Now I will head for a room far away from any windows and cover my head.

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Replies (9): Threaded | Chronological

David Almond on March 31, 2010 7:29am

Robert,

The Kyrie is not an Introit. the Kyrie is part of the Ordinary of the Mass. The Introit is a "Proper", a chant or other musical setting of a text appropriate to the Sunday, Festival, or Commemoration on which the Mass is celebrated.

The text of an Introit is usually drawn from the Psalms, and consists of an Antiphon, Verse, Gloria Patri, and Antiphon, repeated.

Pax, dla

Robert Howard on March 31, 2010 2:03pm

Thank you.

Leonard Ratzlaff on March 31, 2010 9:28am

Robert,

I think if you survey the other Masses of Haydn, and other composers from the Classical period for that matter, you will not find many examples of strict adherence to the idea of singing each of these statements three times. For example, while the Nelson Mass does have three statements of Christe eleison, the Theresienmesse has 6, the St. Nicholas Mass 4, etc. Beethoven Mass in C has 5 full statements. All of these settings have multiple statements of the Kyrie on either side of the Christe, which would seem to indicate a preference for using the Kyrie text more prominently than Christe eleison. Unless you can find clear evidence for changing text underlay in these masses to fit the mold of 3-3-3, I would say leave as is.

Len Ratzlaff

Robert Howard on March 31, 2010 1:56pm

Thank you. I have seen many Kyrie movements with many more than three statements of Kyrie and Christe; I had just never experienced one with fewer than than three Christe's before. I don't plan to change the text without a better reason than a hunch.

Stephen Stomps on March 31, 2010 3:02pm

and Haydn (it is his birthday today, by the way) played fast and loose with liturgical tests in the early Masses through layering of texts. Guess Eszterhazy need a fast Mass.

John Howell on March 31, 2010 7:39pm

Robert et al.

There's one important point that perhaps nobody has thought of. It really didn't matter WHAT the choir did, when you come right down to it. (And I'll admit that I was surprised when I learned this.) In Catholicism, only the priest may address God, and only the texts read (or chanted) by the priest "count." That, at least, is the historical practice. Whether that's still the case today, I don't know.

Which means that the choir could actually be singing substitute texts while the priest reads the required ones. And in fact that's exactly what Monteverdi did in his 1610 Vespers music, substituting motets on other texts for the ones that would have been expected in the Vespers service. That has also been confusing to those who didn't realize this possibility.

Liturgical practice is nothing if not complex!

All the best,

John

Liz Garnett on April 1, 2010 3:21am

Just out of interest, which edition are you using? I don't have a score to hand, but you've piqued my interest and I'd like to take a look next time I'm in a decent music library.

liz

Robert Howard on April 1, 2010 1:54pm

Hi Liz,

I sure have enjoyed your posts! The edition we are using is G Schirmer ed. by Michael Miller. Every edition and recording I have seen and heard has the text, Kyrie Eleison at C. I was hoping to get to see the edition of the complete works of Haydn soon.

Robert Howard on April 1, 2010 3:19pm

Here is a count of Christe Eleison statements in all the other Haydn Masses that I could find on CPDL. If two or more voices present Christe at the same time I counted it as one statement. It is a little tricky to tally them in contrapuntal textures. Fragmentary statements occur in a few cases.

Harmoniemesse - 3 Christes

Heiligmesse - 6 Christes

Kleine Orgelmesse - 3 Christes

Lord Nelson Mass - 3 Christes

St. Nicholas Mass - 4 Christes

Creation Mass - 7 Christes

Theresienmess - 6 Christes

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