And I quote, "too damn bad!".

Now, to get there, I have already performed enough pieces of worth which most of the singers do like or are willing to suspend judgement long enough to get the piece off the ground.

By this time in the year, you should have the rapport established enough that the singers trust you.

If that is not true for you, then you must make that happen before going further.

If you can deliver this line with good will spirit:  "One God, One Faith, One Director"! You will be a long way to success!

S

 I respond with,

 

"I've felt that way, too, many times. But, if you really think about it,  how can I dislike something I don't know? Not all music reveals itself in the first hearing.  Sometimes you have to have conversations with it to discover what it has to say to you. Sometimes, it takes not just rehearsing it, but performing it, and sometimes several times before it will reveal itself.  Take the challenge.  Suspend your judgment. Get to know the music . . . and let it get to know you!"

 

Depending on the music, I might respond with,

 

"Nadia Boulanger famously said something that, when I first read it, made me think. She said, 'Nothing in music is difficult, just unexpected.' Do you not like it because you think it is difficult?  Then maybe it is music that is only 'unexpected.'"

 

Susan Nace

The Harker School

San Jose, CA

 

 

Pamela Baker asks how to respond to someone who, on first hearing or reading a piece, announces that s/he doesn't like it.

 

Otto Klemperer is reported to have responded to a similar complaint, when singers and/or players complained during the first rehearsal about his slow tempi in (I think) the St. Matthew Passion, by saying drily,  "you will."

Dear Ms. Baker:

 

Although the example I am going to cite happened

with adults, the point of it applies to young people,

too.

 

I conducted a church choir in southern California

for fourteen years--from the outset I used a lot of

new pieces--probably over 50%.

 

After three or four years, one of my basses--a man

who had been somewhat problematic the entire

time--came up to me and used a phrase I have

never forgotten: "You have a marked propensity

for giving us pieces that we initially hate--which

turn out to be among our favorite pieces."

 

So unlike Mr. Stomps, I would suggest that you

smile, say something to the effect of "No kidding?!"

and wait for the music and your teaching skills

to work some classroom magic--and see if their

attitudes don't change.

 

Best wishes.

 

 

Cordially,

 

Thomas Sheets, D.M.A.

I'd be tempted along the lines of, 'Well, I wasn't sure I liked you on first acquaintance, but I find you're growing on me over time.' But I'd probably keep it at the level of fantasy unless I was very secure about the levels of trust and shared sense of humour...I could do that with my adult choir, maybe not with student age though.

 

In real life, I've tended not to respond to the comment at the time, but to come back to it the next rehearsal having planned a session to deal with the particular issue the singer has said they didn't like. Giving the singer's viewpoint such public and respectful recognition usually gets them onside to cooperate if nothing else! And part of our job as directors is to help people find the value in the music we've chosen - so getting specific cues as to what they need for that can actually be helpful.

 

Of course, people who say this kind of thing are generally doing it to act up - the musical response is probably genuine, but they're choosing to verbalise it in order to see if they can score points against you. So that's why my response tends to the strategy of 'when someone pushes you, pull.'

 

liz

this comment crops up in my church choir ocassionally. I assure them that they have not heard it yet and to keep an open mind until we know the music. I also remind them that we will not all like all the music all the time, and that's OK....but I strongly encourage them not to decide what they like or dislike too hastily.

 

Good luck!

 I usually quote Seth Bingham, who in the 50s was at Madison Ave Pres and Columbia University.   He had a rule that choir members were not allowed to make a judgmental comment until they had experienced four rehearsals on an anthem.

 

David McCormick

Out of the 25 or so pieces my HS chorale has done this year, only about 3 or 4 met with their immediate "approval" upon first reading.  By the time that they had them performance ready, there were only about 3 or 4 that they *didn't* like (and those were probably because they hadn't worked hard enough to make them excellent).

 

It's a matter of trust, as Stephen said.  My students know I work very hard to program successful repertoire, and I'm open to dropping a piece or two if it really doesn't work.  But they also have to accept that they don't make the decisions in the choir.  Of course it's a little different when your singers are your contemporaries I guess.

 

Dan

 Pamela,

 

I think the student's reaction is not so unusual, especially for one who may not have had much experience singing new pieces or for that matter, doing anything new.  With my top, mixed choir, we do a fair amount of recently composed music which often stretches the students.  Most of the older students have been through the process of moving from that first encounter with a new piece to performance.  Even if their first impression may not be favorable, they trust that with time they will grow to see the value and beauty in the music.  Generally, I think they trust me to put music in front of them which is worthy of their time and effort, even if at first it may not seem so.  It has been my experience that the piece or two which at first was not met with enthusiasm often turns out to be the student's favorite piece.

 

If you have enough older students who have been through the wonderful process of discovery of a new piece (of any style or era), they can pass this wisdom on to the younger ones.  And sometimes this needs a little coaching with even the experienced singers.  So, my response would be an attempt to acknowledge that having such a reaction as this student's is not such an unusual thing, but there is a better way to go about this. We only grow as human beings when we are willing to try new things, and be open to them without making judgments too quickly.  When we first experience a piece, it's not our job to separate musical sheep from goats -- there may be a time for that, but not now.  Also, inasmuch as one may have strong negative feelings about a new piece, it is probably the best to keep those thoughts to yourself.  Choosing to have a good attitude about any task, including that first experience with a new piece, is a noble and mature thing to do.  Perhaps you have an example that the students could relate to or have experienced themselves where they did not like something at first, but did later on.  This may help them to trust the process.

 

Generally speaking, I would try to view this as an opportunity for a great teaching moment.  Learning to trust the process, trust you, and trust themselves are a very valuable lessons.  You might even be able to turn this particular student into one of your strongest allies.

 

Rick Sowers

 Our friends, not students but experienced avocational sight-singers, often express similar opinions, but usually about editions or musica ficta- stopping the flow and not hearing the whole of the edition[usually of medieval music- where there may be legitimate controversy] before the reading is complete. This is a peeve- even if they may have a point. The sound world envisioned by the composer/editor is halted by micro- analysis- and often, upon further time-consuming back & forth, reverts back to the original markings.

 

 I would like to propose a RULE that no changes be proposed until the whole is heard as such; our problem is that we often just do one reading before picking another work. Oh well.

 

SIR

<www.renaissancechorus.org>

Just because a student (with no apparent impulse control) blurts that out, I simply say, "Then don't sing it.  Just sit there."  Eventually, as the rest of us are rehearsing it, that student will join in.  If they don't, I seperate him or her from the group and have them sit up front where I am so that the group can "get closer together and hear each other better."  The student knows that he or she can join the group at any time.  This seems to have a psychological effect on them while giving them the illusion that they are making their own choices.  They do not want to be singled out, but I am not going to hand over control to the students either.  

Scott Wickham 

Hi Pamela - You've gotten many wonderful responses and they all have merit.  I remember..........way long ago.....when in high school, my director had us singing Samuel Barber's 'The Coolin'...........I didn't say I didn't like it, but I can remember how at first I struggled with it...................of course it became a favorite and one I so enjoyed sharing with my kids over the years.  It happens all the time.  Smile and say something like - "I hope that in time, when you/we really know the piece you will change your mind.  However until we know the piece please keep your opinions to yourself, because it make's teaching it and learning it difficult for all of us however in the end you have the right to 'like' it or 'not to like it'.  But make sure that you can give specific reasons for not liking the piece."    Be assured that we've all been there and perhaps you   have had the same reaction when 'reading' something for the first time.  Well I did not intend to be so "long winded".  Keep the love of the Choral Art strong! Dan

I would say, "I don't like it either.  But someone in the audience will, and we do conerts for them, first and foremost.  We have a resonsibility to do all our music well, our own feelings about it aside."

 

 

 During my tenure as a high school choir director, I inevitably heard moans and groans at the start of each semester upon handing out new music and reading through it, and of course there were many who immediately said "I don't like this music"...to which I would always reply "When you say to me you don't like this new music, you are really saying you don't know this new music. You have every right not to like this music, but you may not have that right until after you have fully learned the piece AND performed it in concert to your greatest ability so that both you AND the audience can decide whether or not you and they liked or disliked the piece". Inevitably, the piece that received the most negative comments by my singers at the beginning of the semester, usually received the highest praise by the time of the concert!

 

Martin

 Someone else gave an idea along this line. To me - that statement means nothing. I want to know WHY. I try to teach students to be able to separate objective observations about the music from subjective feelings. I want to get them using musical language to try and explain what they do and don't like. It helps them be better musica consumers, and really cuts down on the whining! 

 

I've also explained that some pieces are chosen because they're fun, some can be used for educational purposes, some have historical merit, etc. We can't all like everything we do all the time.

 

Hope that helps.

I have had this problem in the past and learned from a very wise and experienced teacher early in my career.  I have a rule that no negative comments are allowed in the rehearsal room about any piece until AFTER performances.  One person's dislike can turn any piece into poison for an entire ensemble - that is completely unfair to the person, the ensemble, the composer, the audience and you the director who has taken time and energy to decide on that particular piece.  Once the piece has been performed, I build in a reflection day about the pieces and the process of getting them ready.  I hear their comments and actively listen to them.  If I hear the same thing over and over again, then the problem is probably mine through approach or musical selection.  I take notes and refer to them when choosing future literature.  If its one or two voices complaining, invariably there are a number of others who like that piece the best.  It then doesn't pit director against any one ensemble member or put you in the position of defending yourself.  We can then get at the important WHY questions and open a dialogue rather than start an argument over why my opinion is more valid just because of experience.  Those conversations are some of the most educational moments in my classroom, both for ensemble and director!

Pamela et al.

 

Just a couple of thoughts, not particularly connected, in this most interesting thread.

 

Playing Devil's Advocate (an ancient and important office in the Church, you know!), I've seen a whole lot of conductors' outlooks and not a single student's outlook. The tacit assumption seems to be that we're the boss, and that every choice we make IS good music and it's the kids' fault if they don't like it. Right? That's what I thought! And I'll certainly agree that we always THINK our choices are good ones, or else we wouldn't make them. But are they? And do we? And good ones from whose point of view? Everyone's except the students we ask to sing them? Just something to think about, perhaps. Isn't a fundamental principle of educational psychology to work from the known to the unknown? Any suggestion that "you need to learn this BECAUSE IT'S GOOD FOR YOU" (whether it's Shakespeare or Latin or Bach) will ALWAYS generate resistance!

 

And the other thought. Assuming (as everyone else has) that we DO make excellent choices for excellent and objective pedagogical reasons, nobody so far has suggested one possible approach that seems pretty obvious. I teach college music majors, who are learning and studying and playing or singing quality literature. But they listen to and are up to date on the same kinds of pop music as all the other kids their age, NOT the 100 Greatest Hits of All Time! And why should we expect anything different? After all, popular culture is called that because it's, well, POPULAR! So why not point out that the half-life of the typical pop song, quick and easy as it is to hear, learn, and love, is measurable in months, not years, and that the music we're introducing them to has, in contrast, a half-life that's ALREADY lasted decades, if not actually centuries? And challenge them to figure out the difference?

 

I completely agree that once something is learned, it becomes "I like it" rather than "I hate it," at least a lot of the time. But I'm thinking in terms of rather broader ways of judging quality, and those are the ways that suggest to us that Brahms might just be longer lasting than, say, Michael Jackson! (Although I find the longevity of the Beatles songs remarkabe by ANY standards!!)

 

All the best,

John

 

 

Dear All:

        This thread really kind of falls under the adage, "Too soon old, too late smart." Of course we directors and conductors have our own preferences, and we choose the music for our groups to sing precisely because it fits our definitions of what we believe the group can and should be singing.

        If we did not, we would happily and unstressfully sit (in my case, in the back row of the bass section) in someone else's group.

        I select music -- whether for school groups or my congregational choir -- based on what I surmise their capabilities to be and in which direction I want their musicianship to grow. At all points, this is based upon sound objectives and musically-educational reasoning.

        When anyone disagrees with my programming, whether singers, audience, parents or administrators, I present my reasoning, and am open their opinions, but I remind them that as the director/conductor, the final decision on musical choices lies with me.

        I also give singers and students the chance to come up with their own suggestions (as discussed a few yrs. ago). In a few cases, they found some nice stuff that I had never heard of; in all cases, these people learned just how difficult the process for selecting music can be, and they have deferred to me.

 

        I recently worked as a long-term substitute for the choir director at a hearby middle school, and ran into everyone's favorite school choir buzz saws: "This music is boring", "I hate Ms.X's choices"; "why can't we sing our music?" So we took out a couple of choral arrangements of popular tunes from the school music library, including one based on a very popular and very well-known Michael Jackson tune.

        We sang them all through and rehearsed them over a few days, but I finally pulled MJ from the folders: we were arguing about the legitimacy of the arrangement -- rhythms, voicings, lyrics -- as opposed to what the students thought they remembered from recordings that they had; I had them bring in their recordings and pointed out that the arrangements were correct and in line with the performance as MJ authorized it...; etc., etc. some opinions were in agreement with me, but we were wasting valuable time talking... At this point, I just said no... it wasn't worth it.

We live and work in a time when personal opinion and the results of surveys and pollsters often hold sway over tradition, quality, and common sense. Individuals feel empowered to insist that their opinion is the only valid opinion, and feel justified in discounting any opinion that differs from theirs, regardless how carefully nuanced. And far too often, those individuals become so entrenched in their narrow view that they seek to draw together a constituency of easily led sheep to support that view, by whatever means necessary -- including made-up facts and outright lies.

 

Oh -- this thread is only about MUSICAL choices and opinions. No matter!

 

It strikes me that this thread has been largely defensive of the sanctity of the teacher/director's power to choose and present repertoire to an unquestioning class or ensemble, with the assurance that every member of that group will be very likely to ultimately "come around" to recognizing that leader's wisdom. On the other hand, it also strikes me that far too much importance has been placed on the significance of the question -- from the narrow perspective of one musical choice.

 

We are informed from observation, anecdotal evidence, and research, that the adolescent mind (which continues to exist well into the 20s -- and in some cases, it seems, until death) is not fully developed in all of its marvelous functionality. Because of this, adolescents often blurt out statements, and even "lie," in response to their inability to process conflicting information and emotions, or in reaction to their need to appear a certain way among their peers. You  might be tempted to offer that questioning adolescent mind a "loaner" of your more developed frontal lobe for a few seconds.

 

And, in fact, that is precisely what we do. A crucial part of our job, if we want our work to have legitimacy, is to develop and encourage taste, discernment, judgment, and civility among our students -- regardless their age. That is why a singer's informed dislike of a piece of music is just fine, a perfectly legitimate response (though preferably publicly unvoiced, at least until the experience is complete).

 

Perhaps it is expecting too much of us to explore with our students the legitimacy and basis for the question, rather than defending our own choices. But, if we are secure in the philosophy that guides our choices, that occasional blunt objection to our choices might be seen as an opportunity, rather than a threat. We might invest (not spend) some time with our students talking about how we (and they) make choices (musical or not). We might explore how ignorance, unfamiliarity, fear, bias, hate, peer pressure, cultural differences, et cetera ad infinitum narrow our choices and our experiences through every area of our lives. We might discuss how our choices both broaden and limit our quality and variety of life. We might suggest that there is a significant difference between choosing or preferring, and disliking or hating. We might admit to a few our own choice limitations -- personally, culturally, or institutionally imposed -- and even discover some unintended or unrecognized narrowness in our own choices.

 

So there is a difference between saying: "IT is boring!" and "I THINK it is boring."

 

The entire educational process (you might call it LIFE) requires continual refining of personal choices, preferably through thoughtfully guided experiences rather than knee-jerk reactions. It takes time, and patience. It is rarely accomplished through incivility or coercion.

 

With all the resources that are available to us and to our students, the very technology that makes those resources available also "helps" us by increasingly choosing FOR us what resources appear first in our searches -- based upon PRIOR choices, rather than moving too far away from what we have already experienced. To label it "dumbing down"  may be too harsh a view, but it is arguably a significant factor in deciding what the classroom, the rehearsal, or the public performance  needs to provide.

 

My point is that the statement in question demands both much less, and significantly more reasoned response than might first appear. But it is totally beside the point to treat it as a threat to the autonomy of the director.

 

A few related experiences and observations:

 

-- I established an audition policy for an excellent 36 member choir (half professional, half very experienced volunteers -mostly with strong and established opinions) that included twice yearly private meetings to assess their musical and vocal status, and also to discuss their comments about choice of repertoire, rehearsal and performance policies, etc. This was an opportunity for a continuing mutual commitment, or a no-fault separation -- which rarely happened.

 

-- A respected professor whose intellectual curiosity included the goal of finding something of interest in music that he initially experienced negatively: for example, "discovering" an interesting appearance of a Renaissance cadence in the elevator music track between the first and top floors of the (former) Sears Tower.

 

-- A liturgist's response to a young parishioner who complained that the worship ritual was boring -- "You simply need more experience with it to discover its value."

 

-- Teaching a first organ lesson to a young Japanese graduate student who had just arrived from Japan, with somewhat limited knowledge of English grammar. Having been without sufficient sleep myself, part way through the lesson I yawned rather vigorously. The young woman looked at me with concern and asked, "Are you boring?"

 

-- A noted composer/performer whose music was often criticized as being "too loud." His response was always, "I know!" -- delivered with a smile.

 

And -- I just re-read my opening paragraph, and realized that it could largely apply just as well to the teacher as to the student!

 

Charles Q. Sullivan

cqsmusic(a)hotmail.com

What a wonderful thread! I have two points to add:

 

In addition to all of the points that have been raised about developing trust with your singers and having a well thought out plan for choosing quality literature, I have done two things to "immunize" my choirs from the, "I hate this piece," knee jerk reaction. The first is to let them know that  every piece of music that we sing will be at least one persons favorite and there one person's least favorite. Music that expresses real emotions affects real people and they react in similar and different ways.

I will also challenge the members of the choir, even before we read through the piece, to try and find what is in this peice of music that has made other people love it. What is it about William Byrd's "Ave Verum Corpus" that still has singers raving about the experience of learning and singing it? Sometimes, all that I have to do is to have a friendly twinkle in my eye and in a conspiratorial tone say, "Oh! You haven't discovered yet what is in this song that is wonderful!"  What fun!

 

Have a fabulous day!

 

Jeff Collier

Minico High School

Rupert, ID

Here's a response from a non-teacher who's raised a few teens, and did not initially like every piece of music I had to learn.

 

With students, "I don't like it" can also mean "This looks like hard work and I don't want to work that hard."

 

Music, like food, can sometimes take repeated exposure before people like it.   And students need to learn material whether they think they will like it or not--can you imagine what the geometry teacher says if students complain that they don't like a chapter in the book?

 

Whether the students are saying this to you privately or if they are doing it loudly and disruptively in front of the group will affect your response.

I agree with those who've already suggested saying "Give this music a chance to grow on you."

 

Gail Mrozak

Board Member and soprano

Elmhurst Choral Union

www.elmhurstchoralunion.org