Help with apparel?Date: December 22, 2010 Views: 4551
We're a women's early-music vocal ensemble looking to buy new outfits. Has anyone found a place to buy pants and tops that would accomodate VERY widely-varying body types? I've looked at many websites, and see lots of good-looking pants--but all the tops seem to be fitted, and this won't work for us.
We'd appreciate any advice!
Replies (17): Threaded | Chronological
John Howell on December 22, 2010 12:59am
Marcia: How many are you? That's important. Also, are you familiar with the usual run of choir clothes companies that specialize in choral outfits? I've never used them, but they were discussed very recently and someone should be able to put you in touch. Since they specialize in fashions for choirs with varied body types, at pretty reasonable prices, that might be your best bet.
Long ago my quartet, The Four Saints (sorry, but all male), sometimes bought outfits right off the retail racks, but the problem was to make sure they came from the same dye lot, since under stage lighting the differences become apparent. For a larger group, however, retail shops will seldom have enough of the identical style in different sizes to be able to fit you.
The first year I had a women's show ensemble at Indiana, the girls settled on a particular dress from Penney's, and it did flatter a wide range of body types. My wife supervised the selection process!) For my Early Music Ensemble here I did NOT want the typical tuxes and formals that the other choral groups used, so I put the men in black, long-sleeved turtlenecks and the women in rose-colored knitted tops from L.L. Bean with a scoop neck, slightly fitted at the waist, and a very good look for everyone. But they got tired of those last year, and we went to all-black but not all-identical. And I have never cared whether the women wore pants or skirts (with the exception of the super-tight ski pants one girl showed up in one year!).
Another problem is shoes that don't clunk and clank as they walk on, off, or around the stage!
All the best,
John
Applauded by an audience of 1
on December 22, 2010 3:33am
Hi, Marcia
Take a look at www.concertblack.com - formal blacks for musicians, in a variety of styles and sizes, and all separates. You might also consider a variety of styles in the same fabric.
Brigid Coult
Richmond, BC
on December 22, 2010 3:37am
Marcia,
Take a look at www.casualuniforms.com and see what they have to offer. If you want to talk with someone connected with the company, call 800.591.7063 and ask for Craig Johnston. (Please mention that Ella Marie referred you.)
Ella Marie Schatz
on December 22, 2010 8:45am
We have used dresses from Stage Accents for years and plan to go back this year for additional colors to add some variety to our choral wear. The sizing charts are dead-on, and the styles range from one to three-piece outfits, many of which we've found to be flattering from petites into plus sizes. And their prices have been pretty reasonable as well.
My only caveat is that everyone should be prepared to take their outfits in for sleeve and hem alterations. They allow for heights up to female basketball players, I believe. :)
Applauded by an audience of 2
on December 22, 2010 4:36pm
We are a 50+ treble chorus with members of very widely varying sizes (extra small to 4X) and have recently purchased new outfits from Praise Hymn Fashions (praisehymnfashions.com). They were great to work with and even helped develop a vest pattern we designed to go over a black top.
The black top we purchased from Praise Hymn fits all our singers well: scoop-neck, 3/4 length sleeves with a curved hemline; not baggy but not fitted either. We purchased this top and wide leg pants and a long A-line skirt with elastic waist - a most comfortable outfit. The singers have the option of wearing the pants or skirt with the top - adding to the comfort level.
My advice to you would be to have an impartial person do the fitting - we women are given to the temptation of ordering a size too small when the decision is left to ourselves!
Good luck - this is a big job!
Elise Kent
on December 23, 2010 4:39pm
Monica: Why is it important that you all have the same clothes on? Or perhaps this is just an assumption on my part. L
Applauded by an audience of 1
on December 23, 2010 8:43pm
Hi, "L." No, you raise a valid question. But it's a question with quite a history behind it.
The whole fashion for choir robes dates back, of course, to medieval and later academic robes (see any Harry Potter movie for reference!). And the reason is one that must be almost as old as civilization: defining the difference between "us" and "them." That has always been important in a class-stratified society, in the military (defining whom to shoot at!), in differentiating between athletic teams, and yes, in music as well, although in recent years it has become less a requirement than in the past. And the academic robes did an important sociological job, hiding the differences between the rich kids with wealthy families and the pennyless "scholars," a function that is still the main reason for those who advocate school uniforms.
When I was breaking into show business, in the late '50s and '60s, the rule of thumb for entertainers was to dress always one level better than your audience. Thus (for men), if your audience was casual, you wore suit and tie (just take a look at early Beatles pictures!); if your audience was in suits you wore tuxes; if your audience was in tuxes you wore white tie and tails (check out Fred Astaire or Frank Sinatra movies).
Tuxedos and formal gowns actually descended from 19th and early 20th century dinner clothes, worn by upper class ladies and gentlemen who dressed for dinner every evening and not just on special occasions (check out the Hercule Poirot movies).
Then came the rock bands of the '60s, and everything was turned upside down. The object became to dress at least one level WORSE than your audience, if not more than that. And that, for the first time, was when bands and other musical groups began to dress randomly rather than in matching clothes.
But the "professional look" is still so deeply ingrained that most college ensembles still use tuxes and gowns as a uniform, feeling that it gives the ensemble not only a distinctive identity but also a professional look.
The exception, since at least the '70s, has been in early music ensembles, which do not perform music from the late 19th century and which were among the first to reject late 19th century dinner clothes. Some went the hippy route, some went the random route (similar but not necessarily dressed down), and some experimented with other possibilities. But the need to differentiate "us" from "them" remains, and in some situations, for some people, is as strong as ever.
Just as a footnote, when my university entertanment group traveled on tour, we had very strict travel dress rules, so that we would always arrive at a show location well dressed and looking professional. If you LOOK professional and businesslike, you will be more likely to be TREATED as professionals. And as a result, more than a few of those students graduated and did not have to buy a whole new wardrobe of business clothes because they already owned our status-appropriate travel dress!
John
Applauded by an audience of 1
on December 25, 2010 9:32pm
Yes John. Thanks for the history. My question is still why?
Why do we cling to the need to differentiate 'us' from 'them'? As things were turned upside down in the 60's the trend now is not to be seen in an 'us-them' light. Politically and socially differentiating yourself in terms of status/class is considered to be in poor taste in some circles. L
Applauded by an audience of 1
on December 26, 2010 12:48am
Well, I could just say that it's human nature (and it may well be), but that would be a copout.
And I would suggest that the circles in which status/class/rank is considered to be in poor taste are still rather circumscribed. I mentioned the military. Membership is important to identify for IFF (Identification, Friend or Foe), but also to instantly identify status (rank) in a very hierarchichal organization. Graduation caps and gowns (a poor descendent of full-time academic garb, of course) are still a requirment for most high school and a good many college graduations (which is why I do not attend our own graduations). In church not only the choir (quite often) but the clergy are clearly identified by their vestments. In front of a class of students, many of my colleagues still consider it necessary to wear coat and tie to identify them as faculty rather than students, although I do not, and I doubt that any school district does not have at least an unwritten dress code for teachers.
And of course we've all seen the required "uniform" for Members of Congress and Senators: uniformly a black or dark suit, a white shirt, and (usually) a red tie which too often seems to cut off blood circulation to the brain! There ain't been no hippies elected President quite yet!! And as a musician, my tux is just as much work clothes as a pig farmer's Oshkosh-b'Gosh bib overalls. Agreed that the '60s was a wonderful beaking down of the historical weight of dress codes, leaving women free to wear what looks good on them without being subservient to big name fashion dictators, but there are still limits.
You might not LIKE dress codes, and that's your privilege. But that doesn't mean that other people don't take them seriously. When I first came to this university, there were relatively few women in engineering, and their professional organization organized workshops on how to succeed in business, INCLUDING how to dress for success. For all I know they're still doing it, 30 years later, although we now have a woman as Associate Dean of Engineering.
But your question was about choral uniformity, and the history IS relevant. There's a feeling in classical music circles that individual anonymity is a Good Thing because it does not distract from the music itself. Uniformity helps that. In popular music people realize that individualism is worth money in the bank, so performers work hard to establish an individual style and an individual look. But those same performers often insist that their bands or backup singers dress uniformly, so as not to "upstage" the headliner. Not always, of course, but still quite often, and I've played tours like that when after the first concert the women in the orchestra were ordered to wear black so as not to take attention away from the guest artist. And the visual element is extremely important in show music, even when the performers are not costumed as specific characters. Skirts must flare similarly. Dancers are VERY aware of unison movement, and choreographers of unison costuming. (It was my wife who pointed out to me that when the chorus line in "A Chorus Line" was doing their kicks, the "little girl on the end" had to kick twice as high to match the kicks of the taller dancers, which she did!)
All the best,
John
on December 26, 2010 7:59pm
John: i only wanted MARCIA to consider a simple re-think
on December 27, 2010 8:01pm
Marcia - What about all black - long skirt or pants and top of each woman's choice or long black dress. You could specify long sleeves, width of shoulder (e.g. at least 1"), whether or not beaded outfits were appropriate, whatever the group feels works for them. I sing in two groups that do this and it works quite well. There is also always the black bottom, white top option. I've sung in many groups that go that route, especially when groups are mixed, have frequent guest singers, or things like graduate level conducting recitals which involve a short term commitment. I would specify length of the bottom - all long pants or skirt or singer's choice, though I find that all long looks more uniform. Either of these options also makes it easy for someone new to join without having to worry about whether the outfit is no longer available, the fabric from a different dye lot, etc. Best of luck. I was once in charge of selecting a new outfit for my college choir. What a nightmare! We just don't all look good or feel comfortable in the same thing. Having options within certain rules gives a uniform effect and still allows each woman to feel comfortable in her outfit,
Pat
on December 28, 2010 12:53pm
Hi Marcia
I sing with two community choirs. They have both gone the way of giving guidelines on wardrobe and having choir members purchase their own outfits within the guidelines.
One choir used to buy outfits for approximately 80 people but with a constantly changing membership the supply of wardrobe didn't always fit the members and the clothing wasn't always available to purchase more. After much discussion about the cost of outfitting a choir that changes constantly the wardrobe policy was changed to state members must provide their own 3/4 or long sleeve black top and a white shirt (men's dress shirt style with no embellishments) and black pants. The choir will advise which colour of top is to be warn for a concert and the choir provides accessories such as vests, scarves, ties etc to accent the members core outfit and add colour to the appearance on stage.
The other choir has stated for ladies long sleeve black dress blouse (made of silk, satin, sheer or synthetic), ankle length black skirt, black nylons, black shoes.
Both are simple and people buy outfits that fit them and flatter their figures. If a persons size changes it is their own responsibility to re-outfit themselves and not the choir's responsibility to buy them a new outfit.
Best of luck.
Liz
Applauded by an audience of 1
on January 2, 2010 11:10pm
Thanks to everyone for the feedback. Somehow (silly me!) I had the fantasy that I'd find elegant, drapey tops on the websites of the companies that sell choral clothing. We do alreeady use all black, outfit of the singer's choice, for more informal performances, but were hoping for a more uniform look for our concerts.
Marcia
Applauded by an audience of 1
on April 30, 2013 6:06am
By now, you have likely made your decision. (I just saw this discussion.) There is a company that makes "elegant drapey" tops. One of the groups here in Atlanta wears them - I believe it is Schola Cantorum - and the members like them. I'll look on their site, and check some other groups.
on April 29, 2013 8:28am
Generally, I found this article to be pretty helpful when looking for uniforms for my choir-bow ties and tuxedos for choir groups A lot of it is pretty basic but got me thinking about the right kind of things when shopping around. It's geared toward male choir students. I actually ended up getting ties for my choir from this site. They are very affordably priced and the bow ties look really good on my students
on April 30, 2013 6:44am
Marcia,
We use FormalFashionsInc.com and we come in sizes 0 to 32. Check them out. They have separates as well as dresses.
Good Luck,
Carm
Celebration Singers of NJ
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