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Lotti Crucifixus a 8

Hello!
 
I am conducting Lotti's Crucifixus for 8 voices and am wondering if anyone has any suggestions or directions about where to find a score that is free of bar lines or contains isolated voice parts (i.e. just the T1 line on the score). Any guidance would be greatly appreciated!!

Thank you!
Replies (19): Threaded | Chronological
on April 4, 2012 7:44am
If it's not googleable I suppose it would be easiest to just write it into Sibelius or Finale the way you want it (or ask somebody to do it for you if you don't work with those or other possible programs). :)
on April 4, 2012 1:25pm
Monica,
Its a lot of work, but if you have access to a copy machine, consider this:
 
Enlarge the piece on 11 x 17 paper so that you can white out the unwanted easily. Repair the horizontal lines. (You may wish to copy before repairing the latter)
Since you are copying, you can write in any instructions you wish, such as voices moving to another part temporarily. Whatever you wish.
Reduce your enlarged copy and make number of copies you need.
 
I don't think you will have a copyright problem unless you use a version with a translation or editing. Get a copy from CPDL.
 
Blessings,
 
ep
 
 
 
 
on April 4, 2012 8:02pm
Monica:  I routinely redo early vocal music in Sibelius and take out the barlines.  I don't print individual voice parts, but it is extremely easy to do so once you've entered the music.  And I'm sure you can do the same in Finale, although I'm not so sure about some of the cheaper music programs.
 
Ed suggests doing a pasteup.  I used to that, too, but using the computer is much faster and gives you a good clean printout.
 
If you don't have either Sibelius or Finale perhaps one of your singers or colleagues does.  And if you'd like some tips on how to solve some of the problems, please email me at John.Howell(a)vt.edu.
All the best,
John
on April 5, 2012 2:02am
Hi Monica,
 
A Google search of -
"Lotti Crucifixus" + .sib
(use the quotation marks and note the dot before "sib") will give you a number of places where you can download a Sibelius file of the work. Once you've done that, you simply need someone who has Sibelius on their computer who can remove the barlines for you.
Just for information: the "+.sib" in the Google search is very useful when searching for scores. It means you're setting the search engine to look for the title of you piece and one which has been saved in a Sibelius format. (Similar to the Microsoft suffix of ".doc" for a Word document).
 
Good luck,
 
Peter
on April 7, 2012 7:46pm
Thank you, Peter, this is so helpful!!
on April 5, 2012 6:56am
Pardon my ignorance, but didn't Lotti use bar lines? He lived during the Baroque era after all, not the Renaissance. Or am I missing some musical or pedagogical reason you have for eliminating the bar lines?
on April 6, 2012 5:34am
I'm not certain I understand the desire for having isolated voice parts. Sure, vocal independence is an admirable goal, but there is much to be said for teaching the choir to sing "vertically", for knowing how your part fits in with the rest. If your tenor II's, as an example, are having a difficult time finding one specific C natural in their line, it would be instructive for them to notice that the baritones are singing a B natural at the same time (I don't know offhand if this example actually exists in the music, I'm just inventing a scenario). If they only have their own part as reference, they miss that learning opportunity, and instead have to be told where the difficulty comes from.

I liken it to doing a theatrical performance with the entire cast only being given "sides" in rehearsal (only their own lines, with a couple of cue lines preceding each one). It can be done, but isn't it more valuable in rehearsal for the entire cast to see how their part fits in with the entire show? To be able to read others' lines to get a sense of the flow of the piece, rather than waiting for their recognizable cue to arrive?

Just a thought.
John

on April 7, 2012 5:44am
I think it's admirable that Monica wants to use individual voice parts. Yes, John's points are valid and choirs do learn pieces much quicker than from parts. But at the same time, going through the same experience of singing as our Renaissance / Baroque counterparts must reveal something a score format does not. For me, the key differences are a heightened awarenes of the contours of one's own line, a stronger awareness of the tactus, and shift from the visual to the auditory. The real revelation for me has been the feeling of the tactus (and its binary nature in binary time) - the music feels more rhythmic and solid to me. Also, when singing from a partbook, imitation of the phrasing used by other lines is much more likely, because we hear what they do and, for some reason, it seems the aural facilitates imitation better than the visual. I always think it's worth the effort and helps the choir later to sing more fluently from modern scores.
on April 7, 2012 11:48am
Kari:  I would take your comments one step further.  For a real specialist in early music, it's valuable to learn to read from the original (in facsimile, of course), and many instrumental specialists do just that, maintaining that there is information on the original page that is lost in transcribing into modern notation.
 
As a practical matter, however, most of us do NOT work with early music specialists, and the rehearsal time would not just double but probaby increase even more, because of the simple fact that individual parts--whether in partbooks, choirbook format, or individually printed out by your computer--provide no rehearsal marks.  You must start from the beginning and sing to the end, and if someone messes up you have to stop and start again from the beginning again!  My ensemble tried to play a Christian Bach Quintet from original 18th century prints, and we wasted so much time in the first rehearsal that I went home and entered the whole thing in my computer, and made individual parts with bar numbers and rehearsal marks!!! (There was no full score originally printed, which was typical for chamber music and in fact for most music, and that remained the case for both concert band music and Broadway shows though much of the 20th century!)
 
In some cases the originals have, in one form or another, one or more "signum congruenciae" ("signs of coming together"), often to mark the halfway point in a piece.  In fact our modern fermata sign was one that was used for this, going back to the 13th century.  But that is the exception and was very seldom used.  (It IS used in a 15th century chanson that I have my Early Music Literature class transcribe, and shows where in modern notation a double bar would divide the music into an A section and a B section for purposes of underlaying the text, but in one manuscript it appears in only one of the three voice parts, which sort of misses the point!)
 
So, since none of us has infinite rehearsal time, and many of us work with singers who are NOT early music specialists, I use a compromise approach in my own editions.  First, all modern computer music notation programs are based on common practice bar line usage.  Even when you remove the barlines (which you can do in both Sibelius and Finale), the program KNOWS where they are and operates accordingly, and everything you enter has to fit into a predefined measure.  So making a true no-bar-lines edition requires a workaround of some kind, and often it isn't worth the extra trouble.
 
I do lay out my editions in score format, not individual parts, because of all the advantages that John W points out.  But I do remove the barlines.  Sibelius still ties notes over the invisible barlines, and I'm not sure about Finale, although I did find a kludge that allowed me to override that back when I was using Composer's Mosaic.  (And Craig's trick of counting beats and using invisible time signatures is a trick that works well, but does not allow me to do the NEXT thing:)  I do make a virtue out of necessity, and add bar numbers for rehearsal purposes, and rehearsal marks at major sectional changes, because Sibelius knows perfectly well where those invisible barlines are.  And I even re-enter double bar lines at some of those sectional changes, again to help my singers with their orientation.  It's a compromise, but it does get the barlines out of my singers way (and it's amazingly difficult to ignore the darned things, even when they are reduced to short ticks or mensurstrich between the staves).  As Alan Atlas points out in his book on Renaissance Music, a variety of ways have been used to adapt early notation to modern needs, but none of them is entirely satisfactory.  And imposing modern barlines on renaissance music is the LEAST desireable of them all!
 
I'm wondering how late in history composers continued to copy individual voice parts for their choral music.  It's a simple cost-benefit calculation for the copyist, since it's a waste of time, effort, ink, and paper to copy extra parts into a manuscript page when they won't actually be read by the singers!  We know Bach did, because we have the parts.  I would expect that Mozart and Haydn did the same, and probably even Beethoven, although I've never seen any original manuscripts so I don't really know.  (Yes, they used composing scores, but I'm talking about what they put in their singers' hands, and I'm NOT talking about what a publisher may have done with the music once it was engraved, so publications don't give us useful information.)  I do know that when my late wife was in the opera chorus at Indiana, and they did the Poulenc opera about the nuns who all get guillotined at the end, the choral scores drove them absolutely NUTS!!!  They were in score, but they were JUST the choral parts, with no orchestral reduction and no cues, and they had to make entrances with harmonies and tone clusters with no reference to what was going on in the orchestra.  (Which makes me wonder whether Poulenc himself ever did much singing!!!  Or whether all the singers he worked with had perfect pitch!)
All the best,
John H
on April 7, 2012 2:33pm
I solve the no-bar-lines in Finale basically by making out the whole lines in 36/4 time or however long I want to fit in every line, yes there will be some ties, between lines but way fewer than if I just made invisible bar lines in a "normal" 4/4 time. 
 
Poulenc without cues! Nightmare! 
 
best
 
Hildigunnur
on April 6, 2012 12:34pm
My choir director and professor, Lawrence Doebler developed a system of notation to communicate verbal stress in unbarred choral music. We wrote out all the parts but this was before Finale and Sibelius were so affordable. My Sibelius 2 is kinda tough to do this on, though I have done a score. I'd think Finale might be more flexible for this application.
 
Craig
on April 6, 2012 2:39pm
Craig:  So would an up-to-date version of Sibelius!  But what is the system?  Verbal stress should come straight from the words, and from the notes IF the underlay is what the composer had in mind when he set the text.
 
My son was stilll using Sib2 until I financed an upgrade to Sib6 for him last Christmas.  It's missing some bells & whistles, but does an awful lot of things awfully well.  And he was able to tutor me when I started with Sib4, so much was still the same.  They're up to version 7 now, with an entirely different user interface that still confuses a lot of us.
 
John
on April 7, 2012 4:56am
John (and other interested parties)---
 
The system is a series of triangles to mark passages of three, whether they be three eighth notes, three quarter notes or three half notes. My one edition is here: http://www.scoreexchange.com/scores/39362.html for those familiar with Scorch freeware. The small, black triangles mark a passage of three eighth notes, a small, white triangle marks a passage of three quarter notes and the double white triangles mark a passage of three half notes.
 
I halved the note values from the original and you can see there are no time signatures or ties. For my version of Sibelius I had to figure out the number of beats in a section and use invisible meter signatures. Mr. Doebler used this technique with the Ithaca College Choir when I was an undergrad in the late 80's and essentially deleted his role as "leader" in performance for, how could something like this be conducted? 
on April 7, 2012 7:45pm
Hello everyone,
 
How wonderful to come back from a trip to find such thought provoking comments on my post! Thank you so much for your time and willingness to share your knowledge and information.
 
For those of you questioning my inquiry, my group has been working on the piece for about 2 months, as written (with bar lines and with the full score), and we need a fresh approach. The group is thinking almost TOO vertically and I thought that both removing bar lines and isolating each part would help my singers to be more musical with their individual lines. I think it also invites being conducted in more than one way, sometimes in 2, sometimes in 4, etc. to achieve it's full musicality. While I want to do my part to make my conducting as musical as possible (which I believe a lack of bar lines would inform), I want to also experiment with my students and have them try the same. It's all about keeping it fresh and not being stagnant with the same ways of rehearsing.
 
Thank you so much for your helpful comments! I wish you all the best as we enter spring!

Monica
on April 12, 2012 5:22am
For anyone else interested, I completed the edition Ms. Covitt requested. If anyone would like to see a sample part I'm happy to email a PDF copy.
 
Craig
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