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choral "dumping ground"Date: March 26, 2013 by Craig Betts  Views: 1549
Hello ALl. I'm new here to the sight, but have been teaching for 15 years. I've read some other posts related to my issue, but I thought that I'd bring this up fresh for some current ideas if you have any.
I'm teaching two sections of 6th grade choir. I have each of my groups every day for 55 minutes. In my campus, the schedule is set up so that the kids get to choose from four different electives. Whatever is filled up, the remaining kids get "dumped" into choir. As a result, in my one class I have about 12 or 15 students out of 32 who do NOT want to be there. They have horrible attitudes, they hardly sing, and they fool around. I have worked my tail off all year to the present to try and motivate, but these kids have continued to pull down the rest of the group. I'm using a point system for the whole class with rewards when they do things right. They can earn free classes by their behavior. That has worked OK to a degree, but even that seems to be fading at this point in the year. They are at the point where I can get most of them to at least sit and be quiet, but there are always a handful of them doing something to be disruptive. As most of you know it's like a cancer and I dread what lies ahead for the remainder of the school year. I have very little recourse except to put kids in the back of the room. My administration is the type that wants the teacher to do everything possible before sending kids to the office. We still have one concert left at the end of May. The only consolation I have is that this is our Pops concert, so we will be doing some more contemporary music that the kids will most likely know. They will have choreography and some basic costuming for different numbers.
I guess what I'm looking for are additional ways to motivte the bad attitude kids. They are so disrespectful and create a huge amount of stress in my life. I have never experienced kids like this except for one other position which I only stayed at for one year and then left because the kids were equally as bad in that situation. I am continually losing my temper and having to raise my voice/yell. I have so many kids who talk all at one time....too many to pull out individuals for punishment. I have to repeat myself at least 5 or 6 times and then kids still keep talking. I have had to resort at times to making the whole class write, but I hate to punish the half that are good. I just can see the good kids are just about running out of steam. I'm losing them because of all the bad kids, and that's almost half the class.
Any ideas or suggestions??
Thanks.
Craig Betts
magnolia ISD
Magnolia, TX
Replies (16): Threaded | Chronological
Ronald Richard Duquette on March 27, 2013 3:37am
Craig - My sympathies for your situation - and of course, what's worse is, not only do the kids get "dumped," but they KNOW they've been dumped - which would ruin anyone's attitude ("I didn't get the elective I wanted, so screw them!"). The first solution is to approach the administration for a discussion about the policy in general. Not knowing what the other electives are, perhaps that information may help some of the more experienced middle school teachers in the "assembled eyes" to provide more specifics than I can (I'm not a teacher, but do direct two choirs - of adults). Nonetheless, the approach you might take would be to inform the administration that music is a discipline every bit as demanding as any other - more so, because there is a seriously physical component that only other performing arts (theater, instrumental music) encompass. Therefore, chorus cannot be seen as simply the "dumping ground of last resort" - what it suggests is that the administration does not have a serious handle on how to allocate persons. (Presumably there are kids in the other electives who aren't thrilled to be there, either - they're there simply because it's more "fun" than some other.) It also suggests to me that your fellow electives teachers have been more effective historically in convincing the administration that their course cannot be a "dumping ground" - but that can't be true, either. I will acknowledge that you're not likely to be effective in the short term in getting the administration to consider alternatives, but at least you need, for your own peace of mind, to put the marker out there that you are in full disagreement with their policy of using chorus as, "Gee, no other space available? Dump 'em in chorus!"
Don't put the bad ones in the back of the room, that'll just concentrate the cancer and let it feed on itself. Let us know the answers to some of the following:
1. Is there a particular individual or two who are the "ringleaders?" If so, separation from the rest can "starve" the cancer. A discussion with the specific "ringleader(s)" can also help, at least to the extent that you point out to them that you're not thrilled with having them there with that attitude either, but there's nothing you really can do about it at the moment - so a truce can be declared. I did that with one 4th grader - he told me he "hated" music (not so), and I told him, "Okay, I can't make you like music; but don't screw it up for the rest of them, and I'll leave you alone." (It helped I knew him from the soccer league.) Believe it or not, he held his end up of the bargain and surprised all of us - himself included - by being able to tell the whole plot line of "The Magic Flute" when I ran it back through after introducing it in a previous class.
2. Is there a difference between the guys and the gals who are provoking you (and the rest of the class)? Differences in their behaviors? Girls doing the bulk of the "yakking," guys just acting out? At this age, it seems to me that these behaviors are group-oriented - i.e., it's never done for itself, but done with an eye always over their shoulders to establish position in the group they really want to be a part of. i have to admit that I am constantly amazed at how girls at this age, having seen each other all day, can still find SO MANY things to HAVE to talk about. Guys, on the other hand, need to be doing things - even stuff that seems banal or stupid to you. Get them up and moving (there are other posts on this very matter earlier).
I'm sure there are other things people can ask as well, and can provide specific answers. Your situation is more than unenviable - it's definitely cruel and unusual punishment! You're in the best situation to see what tactics to take.
Okay, "assembled eyes and ears," let's help Craig out in this misery. That's what WE'RE here to do.
Chantez bien!
Ron
Craig Betts on March 28, 2013 6:12am
You hit some very good points here. There is definitely a difference between guy and girl activity. THe girls are most definitely the talkers. THe guys are the ones who act out physically . I am getting ready to re-seat them, and yes, I was planning on putting all the troublemakers right up front where I can see them. Yes, I have a policy where I send them to the back of the room, and then if they continue to misbehave, they go to the office. I also have "the power of the pen". In other words, the students receive a weekly participation grade. As a result, I have probably 10 kids out of 32 in a class that are failing choir because they come to my class and do NOTHING. I honestly believe they don't care about their grades. It really doesn't matter to them. But still, I am grading them on their parrticipation. They are the ones who also hang outside my room and wait until the latest possible time to come in. Then when they do come, they try and hang out in the back of the room, talking. I mark them tardy, and then after so many tardies, they get lunch d-hall or something similar to that. The attitudes are a real issue here.
Funny thing...some days they will come in and we will have a really good day. The next day they come in and you'd think I never taught them anything. THey are so unpredictable!
Ronald Richard Duquette on March 29, 2013 4:36am
Craig - What you say in that last set of sentences is the key to the whole thing: the fact that hormones are kicking in big time. The girls are busy about the business of setting the "pecking order" - they'd never admit to that, not in a thousand years - but that's what's happening - and the chorus classroom, since it is a place where the mouth/voice are constantly in play, is a great "playground" for getting this stuff done - and it is "stuff." The guys, on the other hand, pretty much have the hierarchy figured out - they know who's the leader, and who's the goat at the tail end of the hierarchy. So, a suggestion is to absolutely forbid all talking except under two specific circumstances (and have certain consequences for violation) - to sing, or to ask a question involving notes or barf or blood. ("When are we going to meet for our concert?" does not count as one of these - you tell them in YOUR time.) That addresses the "hen-pecking" part of your day; for the guys, identify the leader among them, and then focus on him - not negatively, but in giving him a function that reinforces his role WHILE AT THE SAME TIME ADVANCING YOUR OWN AGENDA. Give him things to do, distributing music (along with his key cohorts), etc. Now, this approach may not be congenial to you - we tend, as a tribe, to be more collaborative than directive - but someone has to be in charge, and right now, that's YOU.
You also mentioned something which will be critical to "breaking up" the gangs of guys and gals who won't come in to the last minute - ASSIGN THE SEATING, consistent with the voice parts. DO NOT leave it to them to pick and choose their spots. Sure, they'll figure out what you're doing quickly, but you're the adult in the room; it's your room, and you get to put people where YOU want and need them, not where THEY want. If they violate the seating for their benefit, you force them to move and have consequences for violating your seating chart. This is a culture change that you're going to engage in for the next three months - well, then, best get about the business at hand. This isn't a musical issue; it's a leadership issue. They, in their own way, are taking away your opportunity to exercise your proper role as a leader. You need to take that back. There are times to be LOUD about things; but I would suggest a completely different approach, and see what happens: just stand there and stare - hard! - at the violator to your program. Don't smile; don't frown; just stare. No matter how long it takes, they'll suddenly realize they are the focus of all eyes - and not in a good way. And every time it happens, do it again. It's hard; but remember, we're "word" people ourselves, and we resort to words to communicate. We should all recall (myself included) that the music continues in the rests, as well as in the notes.
One thing about the reseating - putting all the leaders right in front means they do nothing but get rewarded for the bad stuff they do - remember, it's about attention; they don't care whether it's good or bad attention. Someone much wiser than I said the only difference between a 2-year-old and a 12-year-old is the 1! The issues are the same, but being played out on a larger scale. What are the "terrible twos" about? "NO!!!" This is the same thing, but now with help. Reseat to accommodate YOUR singing plan - you neither reward nor punish them (making darned sure the girls who are the worst at chatting don't get to sit next to each other, and ditto the boys who take advantage of silences to act out), but you make it clear that there is business afoot here, and you will no longer tolerate ANY foolishness that has nothing to do with music - period. The funny things about kids at this age is they also have an almost desperate need to get rewards for good behavior - think about how you'll do that as well. They HUNGER for our approval - it's just they'll never admit that. Ignoring them won't work; they'll just take the lack of attention as a green light for doing whatever it takes to get the attention they really want.
Maturity is, in part, finding useful or good things to satisfy one's own need for positive feedback. They don't know what that is at this age. You need to show them.
Chantez bien!
Ron
on March 27, 2013 6:23am
It's hard to know without observing directly, but it sounds like you're already doing everything within your power to accommodate and work with all students, which is what good teachers do. If I were you, I would establish a system of consequences for those who continually disrupt the learning of the other students. The music deserves respect, and so do you, and so do the others who want to be there. Include among the consequences a trip to the office - it should be down the list, but if you're doing everything you can, the administration needs to know first-hand the result of their idiotic policy.
Once you get through this year, if they don't change this policy, I'd find another job. You deserve better, and so do the students. Good luck!
Joseph Young
Quincy, MA
Applauded by an audience of 3
on March 27, 2013 7:48pm
Call their parents. Let administrators know that your classes perform in front of the public, unlike all other electives. The students have to WANT to be there or it is a constant battle. If you have a few "ringleaders" call their parents and have the parents ask to have the students taken out of the elective. The parents of the remaining students, as well as the students will be grateful and you'll have a workable group.
on March 29, 2013 1:06pm
That is exactly what I was going to suggest. I spent about an hour after school following a particularly challenging rehearsal behavior-wise, and told the parents the behavior, that their child was not the ONLY one acting out, but I was calling ALL of the parents, asked for their support/would they talk to their child, etc, and ended with "If their behavior does not improve then the next consequence will be _____________." HUGE improvement the next class period. It doesn't last forever, but it does let some of the "followers" know that they might be headed for trouble if they don't straighten up. Hang in there!
on March 28, 2013 6:04am
Ron and Joseph,
Thank you so much for your vote of encouragement to me. It is very encouraging to hear other educators tell me that I am not a bad teacher, because I have gone home almost every day beating myself up and blaming myself for what I have to experience on so many days of the week....trying to figure out what I am doing wrong that keeps these bad kids from changing and having a better attitude about chorus. But your suggestions are very good and I appreciate them. The head of our choral department has met with the school superintendent and they discussed this issue of my choir being the "dumping groung". The other choral directors certainly sympathize with me, and it was nice to have a voice at the last meeting. I don't know what will change, though. It is definitely a problem.
Joe, you'll be intrigued to know that I am actually transferring to elementary music next school year. Our one teacher is retiring, and I was very blessed to be ablle to request a transfer. So, I will be teaching general music to K-5. My elementary kids and I get along splendidly, so I am looking forward to the change. I only hope that the next teacher will have more resources. I'm not sure that I am really cut out for the middle school level. I've had a few excellent experiences, and also a few like where I am right now. I do know that our geographic and socioeconomic factors play a huge role in what I must deal with every day. Many of our kids come from very poor backgrounds with broken up families. There is very little structure at home, so I am dealing with untrained and undisiciplined kids who have just not been taught the basics of classroom etiquette. They do not respond to the "traditional" discipline methods that have worked so well for me over the years. These types of kids just do not respond to my methods. It has certainly forced me to become more creative, but man!!, my brain is so tired from trying to figure out what to do each day. But I will get through this, and I will finish the year well with the kids. I'm being as positive as I can, and I always stress the "team" concept to my kids. I often compare our choir to a sports team so that they can understand the importance of attitiude and participation for success.
Thanks again for the good words, friends!
Craig Betts
on March 29, 2013 4:47am
Craig - I hadn't read all the way down to this posting of yours; but even with the changes in your professional life that you'll be undertaking, you still have a responsibility in precisely those ways I mentioned above just a few moments earlier. You mentioned that the socioeconomic and geographic factors that are in play have a deleterious effect on these kids - and it's a sad commentary about our culture that this is so. So, your classroom for the remaining three months has to be a haven of discipline, order, and "tough love." You know how desperate they are for that order, that timeliness; yeah, they kick against it, but it's because they're figuring out how to incorporate this and not lose themselves. For, indeed, they ARE lost: lost in a society that doesn't care, that tells the girls they're too fat/tall/skinny/pimply, whatever; that tells guys they have to be tough/mindless/brutish in order to be "cool" (I know; how sixties an expression!) - and they instinctively fight against that, because, as I believe, we are far more aware inherently about what's Right and Good and Truthful and Beautiful than we're ever given credit for or had pulled from us - and the capitalization is not a mistake. This "relativistic" society of ours is unwilling to acknowledge certain absolutes - and you, sir, are a servant of some of those absolutes! (I thought of writing "high priest" but I'm not sure how that plays these days!) The release to a new "paradise" is something that you can look forward to - but don't let the kids know for a second that this is happening and its cause. Otherwise, you will have three months of "hell" before "paradise".
Chantez bien!
Ron
on March 28, 2013 9:00am
Hi Craig,
What a sad commentary concerning the respect the administration has for the music program. This happens much too often. I did have a similar situation a few years ago and handled it in
this way.
Next, I would meet individually with the 'no way I am going to
sing students'. I would ask them what they are good at. Is it art
or electronics, or getting other people to listen.Perhaps it is
sports or dj or mc or whatever. Ask them what is their favorite top
things to do in their free time and what is their favorite subject.
Tell them it is OK for people to have different interests and that
because you have all been thrown together in an unlikely match, you
are interviewing people like themselves for a job opportunity.
Theirpay for this joy is their grade at the end of the semester.
You would need to go into these interviews with a business plan.
You are starting a business and that business is promoting the
choir. Your positions my include techies who set up run and take
down equipment, verbal announcement writi.g and delivery, video
production that creates a commercial for your choir, props and
costume lead. Etc. It worked beautifully for me more than once and
allowed me the opportunity to create a viable choir.Of course
therewould be specific job duties for theothere and they may be
accountable to you with the help of a 'Manager'. The ticket designs
and posters, perhaps fundraising etc is all in the realm of
opportunity.
Applauded by an audience of 3
on March 29, 2013 7:01am
I had great success with !Performances!
In a required Chorus for grades 7-9, students could invite other students, family, other teachers. They were allowed to sing anything they chose; the only requirement was that they bring me the sheet music ahead of time. (I'm a good sight-reader! -- but the current popular music needed a little research...) they stood before the class, announced the title and composer/s and anything they wanted to say (prepared) about their selection. I had one a day, which usually meant one at every rehearsal. This was popular with the listeners as well as the performers. Timing changed -- beginning or end of the rehearsal.
on March 29, 2013 7:13am
Susan and Barb,
Thank you for your great comments. Yes, I am using the grading system to my advantage. The kids are well aware of how they will be graded for attitude and participation each day.
I love the idea of calling in the kids one at a time to talk with them. You know, I've actually already thought of doing that, but I think your post has encouraged me to really go through with it. I have a really nice morning schedule which allows me time to "conference" with students if I need to. I'm going to start pulling in my troublemakers, one or maybe even two at a time to find out what makes them "tick" and how they would like to have a significant role in the chorus.
Yes, it is very frustrating. I have called parents many many times. Unfortunately, our administration in my building will NOT allow students to switch out of chorus, even if the parents are writing and requesting it. I actually had probably almost 8 parents calling and saying that they wanted to take their kids out of chorus. I think it would have been a huge help to me, but the administration immediately put a cap on that and said no. I was able to get rid of one student. When word got out, others wanted to leave as well, but they were told "no". Is this not sad and frustrating?? But all that is going to change next year. They are planning to add a study skills elective to the current choices. However, as I mentioned in a previous post, I am transfering to the elementary level next year, so this will no longer be my headache. If anything, my presence here this year helped to bring a significant problem to the front of the line. The teachers realize that this system will not work. Personally, I beleive that I am more suited for elementary with my personality and demeanor. I think it's just going to be a better fit for me. I just had my spring concert with my elementary honors choir. I had 90 plus kids on the stage and they were so excited and energized to be singing. Not to brag, but they did a super job and it was evident that they loved what they were doing. Now how in the world can I manage 90 fourth and fifth graders on a stage with relatlively few problems, AND have them loving what they are doing?? and then I have 64 sixth graders and it's all I can do to motivate them to sing and get excited about their music......I just keep scratching my head. I don't get it. But I think that part of it is personality and how we mesh with each other. I've taught middle schoolers for many years, but never had a group like this one. Everything I've ever used to manage my classroom just does not work with these kids. And yet I use those same techniques on other groups and I get wonderful results......go figure........
Thank you again for your encouragement. What a great bunch of people I have met on this forum so far. Y'all are FANTASTIC!!
blessings to you......
Craig
on March 29, 2013 7:22am
Based on an assumption (correct me if I'm wrong), I'm going to take a different slant on the situation. You say that students are put into your choir when other electives are full. Does that mean that choir is also one of the electives? (That's the assumption I'm going to base the rest of my response on.) If so, then why not do everything you can to make choir the popular elective that everyone wants to be in, so that the excess students are funneled into some other elective? If you could arrange field trips to a performance, for example, or set up a weekend tour or a day trip for an off-campus concert, then maybe choir would be the class that students want to elect. From your description, it seems as though many of the things you're doing in the class are motivating and enjoyable (the pops concert is a good touch also), but if there could be some outside of class "carrots to dangle," it might turn the tide.
If choir is not one of the electives you mentioned in your posts, then the above comment is negated. Good luck, Craig.
on March 29, 2013 9:45am
You need to call each parent individually... Let them know how their child is behaving in class and that their behavior and lack of participation is affecting their grade.... Invite the parent to come in and sit and observe their own child's behavior and make sure that you give your administration a "head's up" as to what you are doing......
on March 29, 2013 10:04pm
I taught K-5 for 12 years. Sometimes there are 'waves' of students that come through that are very cooperative and others that are not cooperative. By 'waves', I mean entire grades. For example, I still remember this very difficult grade that tested the mettle of every teacher from the time they started kindergarten until they passed 5th grade. We heard stories about them during their tenure at the middle school. Their collective behavior was so disruptive that they did not learn and so their grades and test scores were low. Of course, they were awful in chorus. By contrast, I remember one particularly wonderful group that also came through. Teaching them was truly a pleasure. They were attentive, inquisitive and enthusiastic with high participation in band and chorus.
If you never had trouble with middle school before, it doesn't mean that you are not cut out for it temperamentally, musically, etc. It most likely means that this particular group is simply being obnoxious. Were there problems with these particular students before middle school? Did they all come from the same elementary school where they were already disruptive?
Just because you're having a bad year with a bad group does not mean you are a bad teacher. I know. I had bad years - but I also had good years. Good luck!
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