Angie, you will clearly be making this organization completely unaffilliated with school. I see no problem whatsoever. I and colleagues of mine have been forced into similar situations. Go for it!

Hi, Angie.  Interesting question, for sure.  It sounds as if you've thought it through pretty well, and of course getting parents permission is key.  But it also sounds like something that would be wonderful IF everything goes exactly as planned and there are no emergencies.

 

So the question is, what happens if something DOES go wrong.  And THAT scares me more than a little.  I assume that your students are all younger than 18, which means that they are legally minors, and someone has to take responsibility for their health and safety.  And it looks like that someone would be YOU!!  And of course it doesn't matter how many permissions and disclaimers you get parents to sign; anyone can be sued by anyone else regardless, and that really leaves you hanging.  Which means that you definitely need to look into the availability and cost of liability insurance, since any such insurance your school has will obviously not cover you.

 

But there's one other thing that occurs to me.  You want to take your school ensembles because you believe that it would be good for them, and a well-planned trip to a festival or competition CAN be a very positive experience, bring a group together, and be truly memorable.  But the "community chorus" you describe would NOT be your school ensembles, especially since you can't make taking part a requirement, so doesn't that sort of defeat your whole purpose?!!

 

It's usually a bad idea to try to make a sneaky end run around established rules, even when you don't agree that the rules are reasonable.  There's just too much opportunity for things to go wrong.  But I commend you for planning to run the idea past your administrators.

All the best,

John

Angie - I have to kind of agree with John on this one, much as it is not pleasant to do so (not because of John, let me hasten to add!).  I agree that the rules are, frankly, dubious; but perhaps a discussion with the administration as to the "wherefore" may be in order, and then it may not seem so, well, "stupid."  John's quite right on two points:  though you're not doing an "end-run" without letting the admin know that you're looking at it, it won't make your life any easier; and if they do shrug their shoulders, understand that they have also wiped their hands clean of any responsibility that may fall out, legally and morally.  I don't know that your salary or your goods can stand a major lawsuit - and unfortunately, this IS a highly litigious society we live in.  John's final point of the value of the experience, since it won't be a school ensemble per se and thus not a requirement, holds up a little less well, since at many schools while there is the pressure to participate, there are options out (financial, etc.) which can be exercised.  Nonetheless, even that point is well-taken, but can be countered that ANY such experience would be a positive one - but likely taken up by those who are already convinced of the value of a choral experience anyway, wouldn't you think?

 

Be very sure you walk this through thoroughly and with the assistance of some legal counsel who can walk you through the legal minefields that are out there.  If all those seem worth it, then consider it and go for it.

 

Chantez bien!

 

Ron

Angie,

 

In forming your community chorus, you might want to consider conditions for membership.  I know you want your school choir to go on trips, but have you thought of what a traveling community chorus might do to your school choir enrollment.  What if the students decide to join your community chorus instead?  There goes your program!  I think a community chorus could offer wonderful opportunities to many young singers, but perhpas you could make "participation in your school ensemble" a condition.  Just a thought.

 

Marilyn

Get a lawyer!!!

 

I love my kids to no end, but there is nothing in this world that would get me to take on the liability of traveling with minors without the protection of school backing.  Think of it this way...

 

You know how in National Parks there are sometimes concessionaires who will take you on guided trips?  Boat rides, hikes, horseback rides, etc...   Those businesses are just that - businesses.  They are operating with permits and insurance and are incorporated in some form so that liability rests more on the organization (even though individuals can still be sued).  They make you sign all kinds of waivers - but people still bring lawsuits.  Anyway...   let's say you want to earn some extra money in the summers by leading people on hikes since you know the area or something.  You put ads on Craigslist, the paper, wherever.  People pay you directly.  You do all the booking.  You are your only "employee".  You are "in charge".  Now think about all of the places those people will go and all of the things they will do just on a day hike - and imagine what can go wrong.  Since you don't have a permit, are not incoproated, have no insurance, etc..   the ENTIRE liability falls on you and your livelihood.  Picture their lawyer describing a situation gone awry.  What would they say?

 

By taking people outside of your family on a group trip, you are essentially funtioning as a tour guide/travel agent/parentis in abstentia/etc....  

 

It sucks that they have rules - but playing by your school's rules is the smart thing to do, legally.  Also, since this would be an outside group, your union insurance would not cover you either (I think). 

 

I would not do a trip like this unless every kid had a parent going with them - and even then, I'd hesitate.

 

Do some research on how professional children's/youth choirs handle this.  I bet you'll find that they are incorporated in some way.

 

Be careful!!!

:-)

~Jessica

 

 

 

Some good advice here.  Let me ask and add a different perspective, even though I am sure you have thought of it already.   Why does your school not allow any out of state traveling?  Has there been a bad or many bad experiences before?  Is it because of insurance?  I see and understand your want to do a trip with your kids, but as it has been said being sneaky can be dangerous.  My suggestion is, figure out why they don't allow traveling.  If it is because of insurance, you might be out of luck, but if it is because of bad experiences than you may be in luck, it will just take time.  How about setting up an in-state choir tour, or a choir exchange within your state.  Find a school that will let you travel to them, stay with the students families and put on a combined concert, then they can come by you and do the same thing.  I set this up with my choir (from Wisconsin) and another one from Oklahoma.  Yes, many things could go wrong, and yes I had school backing, but maybe this is what can help you show the board that the kids can really benefit from this experience.  And that doing something bigger will only make the kids experience better.  Just my 2 cents.  Good luck and I hope you can figure out a way to make it happen!

 

Spencer

Let me pose a similar scenario:

 

Angie asks the school permission to sponsor a chess club. They turn her down. Angie then finds, for example, a local non-school facility (e.g., a church) who is willing to let her use their space to sponsor a chess club strictly for young people. Those "young people" will certainly be students at her school. The school has no power whatsoever to raise any objections.

 

Getting back to the "community" youth choir Angie proposes: yes, Angie will have to obtain funding (through members' fees or outside sources) for various types of insurance for travel and rehearsals that would have been automatically provided for free (probably) had the school sponsored the group. But I assume that Angie has thought of that.

 

There are other issues as well, to be sure. For example, a community youth group would also have to allow students who are NOT From Angie's school. This is probably a good thing, but then it grows beyond what Angie perhaps envisioned.

 

But the school is powerless to dictate activities that are not affiliated with the school that take place anywhere other than on school property.

I really appreciate all the feedback. Yes, I had thought of the liability issue, which I should have made clear is why I was asking for advice. I am still on the fence as if I would actually do this or not. If I DID, I would indeed let kids from other schools join by recommendation of their director.

 

As far as insurance goes; how would I get that? What does it cost?

 

The school doesn't allow it because they said their insurance doesn't cover out of state events. That's why I was wondering, if I did it on my own, what kind of insurance would I need to get and where would I get it from?